Improving the list of nurbs curves plugins

[Carsten Haubold]

Hey all,
or especially Joaquín, Joe and Bart,

would you be so kind and have a look at the list of plugins (http://www.k-3d.org/wiki/User:Caste/GSoC_Application) I proposed (the curves part for now) and tell me what you think should be added/changed just as Joaquín already did? Especially Joe's artist's view would be important here I think.

In means of the Nurbs curve connecting plugin: I intend to create 2 plugins, one which takes the (2?) selected points and connects the curves at these, and another plugin which checks for the nearest end points and connects them (if they're above a given threshold - if the user wants that).

Regards,
Carsten

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[bART Janssens-2]

On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Carsten Haubold <CarstenHaubold@...> wrote:
> Hey all,
> or especially Joaquín, Joe and Bart,
>
> would you be so kind and have a look at the list of plugins
> (http://www.k-3d.org/wiki/User:Caste/GSoC_Application) I proposed (the
> curves part for now) and tell me what you think should be added/changed just
> as Joaquín already did? Especially Joe's artist's view would be important
> here I think.

I have nothing really fundamental to add, but for the curve tools we
should ensure that there is complete "mathematical" control, i.e.
allow modification of the curve order (Degree Elevation), knot
multiplicity and optionally direct control over the knot vector
(enforcing the applicable contraints). In the long term, a
point-and-click tool to create control points or curves could be
created.

Cheers,

--
Bart

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[Joe Crawford]

On Sun, Apr 27, 2008 at 6:43 AM, Bart Janssens
<bart.janssens@...> wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Carsten Haubold <CarstenHaubold@...> wrote:
>  > Hey all,
>  > or especially Joaquín, Joe and Bart,
>  >
>  > would you be so kind and have a look at the list of plugins
>  > (http://www.k-3d.org/wiki/User:Caste/GSoC_Application) I proposed (the
>  > curves part for now) and tell me what you think should be added/changed just
>  > as Joaquín already did? Especially Joe's artist's view would be important
>  > here I think.
>
>  I have nothing really fundamental to add, but for the curve tools we
>  should ensure that there is complete "mathematical" control, i.e.
>  allow modification of the curve order (Degree Elevation), knot
>  multiplicity and optionally direct control over the knot vector
>  (enforcing the applicable contraints). In the long term, a
>  point-and-click tool to create control points or curves could be
>  created.

Those are very good points.

Actually, early on in the process, we should be thinking about a
couple of those things quite a bit.

For example, linear points on cubic curves (ie, using knot
multiplicity or whatever) should be very transparent to the user. So
that if, for example, the user wants to create a corner on a curve
that is smooth, a CV can be selected and turned into a corner CV.
After such a point, all tools and plugins would operate on that CV as
if it was one point, even though it might have a multiplicity of 3.

The overall problem with Nurbs tools typically is that they don't take
care to manage such things from an artists point of view. If the
system manages such things and abstracts them well, then users can
have more of a "set if and forget it" approach to using things. As
opposed to say, many other programs, where the user would have to take
special care to select all three points all piled up on top of each
other, in order to move around the corner CV.

Thinking about the overall approach to a lot of these tools is
probably quite important. A lot of different tools/plugins should all
respect some of these settings.

Another question, some Nurbs curves I've used have a "weight"
associated on various CVs. Does k3d support weights?

Another thing is that curves should be able to mix there degrees, at
least from a users point of view. This is related to the earlier bit
about multiplicity, and is perhaps another method of getting the same
usability. So, for example, if you have a smooth curve, and a linear
curve, and want to tie the end points together, you should be able to
weld them. After such point, as far as the user is concerned, there is
only one point there. One point to select, one point to move. The
system would manage the fact that its actually different points away
from view of the artist.

These things might be getting ahead of ourselves, since really, I
would be satisfied if I could just draw curves using point and click.
That would at least allow nice references for modeling. However,
perhaps the tools can be written so that these concerns can easily be
addressed later without rewriting everything.

Perhaps the best way that I can help would be to look at the lists so
far, and order them in terms of what an artist would need first/most.
A lot of those other concerns I bring up would be cool down the road,
but aren't really crucial right away.

I'll try to edit the wiki a little bit to make a page with my
perceived "order of importance" for artists.



Sincerely,

Joe Crawford
___________________________________
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Cell: 604-866-3050
Email: joetainment@...
Web: http://celestinestudios.com

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[Carsten Haubold]

Hey Joe,

thx for your feedback!

2008/4/28 Joe Crawford <joetainment@...>:

>  I have nothing really fundamental to add, but for the curve tools we
>  should ensure that there is complete "mathematical" control, i.e.
>  allow modification of the curve order (Degree Elevation), knot
>  multiplicity and optionally direct control over the knot vector
>  (enforcing the applicable contraints). In the long term, a
>  point-and-click tool to create control points or curves could be
>  created.

Those are very good points.

I know it'd be great but as I don't see any possibility to create points by just klicking somewhere (is there any?), that would probably be a bigger project.

Actually, early on in the process, we should be thinking about a
couple of those things quite a bit.

For example, linear points on cubic curves (ie, using knot
multiplicity or whatever) should be very transparent to the user. So
that if, for example, the user wants to create a corner on a curve
that is smooth, a CV can be selected and turned into a corner CV.
After such a point, all tools and plugins would operate on that CV as
if it was one point, even though it might have a multiplicity of 3.

Thats true, and it should not be a problem, I only need to find out how I can present the knot vector to the user in the property panel.
Perhaps a String property with comma seperated values?
Or would you prefer kind of an "edit multiplicity" plugin for a single CV where you can change its multiplicity?

The overall problem with Nurbs tools typically is that they don't take
care to manage such things from an artists point of view. If the
system manages such things and abstracts them well, then users can
have more of a "set if and forget it" approach to using things. As
opposed to say, many other programs, where the user would have to take
special care to select all three points all piled up on top of each
other, in order to move around the corner CV.

Nurbs are stored as a set of CVs, knot vectors and weights, so you'll always have only one point to move even if it has a multiplicity >=1.

Thinking about the overall approach to a lot of these tools is
probably quite important. A lot of different tools/plugins should all
respect some of these settings.

Another question, some Nurbs curves I've used have a "weight"
associated on various CVs. Does k3d support weights?  

Yup, see above.

Another thing is that curves should be able to mix there degrees, at
least from a users point of view. This is related to the earlier bit
about multiplicity, and is perhaps another method of getting the same
usability. So, for example, if you have a smooth curve, and a linear
curve, and want to tie the end points together, you should be able to
weld them. After such point, as far as the user is concerned, there is
only one point there. One point to select, one point to move. The
system would manage the fact that its actually different points away
from view of the artist.

This shouldnt be a problem either. A mesh can contain several curves, if you create 2 curves with different orders, and use the ConnectCurves plugin I'm currently working on, you'll have 2 linked curves sharing the end point.

These things might be getting ahead of ourselves, since really, I
would be satisfied if I could just draw curves using point and click.
That would at least allow nice references for modeling. However,
perhaps the tools can be written so that these concerns can easily be
addressed later without rewriting everything.

Perhaps the best way that I can help would be to look at the lists so
far, and order them in terms of what an artist would need first/most.
A lot of those other concerns I bring up would be cool down the road,
but aren't really crucial right away.

I'll try to edit the wiki a little bit to make a page with my
perceived "order of importance" for artists.

 

That would be great!

Regards,
Carsten

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[Joe Crawford]

>>> In the long term, a
> > >  point-and-click tool to create control points or curves could be
> > >  created.
> >
> > Those are very good points.
> I know it'd be great but as I don't see any possibility to create points by
> just klicking somewhere (is there any?), that would probably be a bigger
> project.

I actually think that's the most important thing to have. Without a
"draw curve" tool, the rest of the tools would be unlikely to be used
by anyone.

However, I think the stuff that Tim is doing for tools will end up
helping there.



> Or would you prefer kind of an "edit multiplicity" plugin for a single CV
> where you can change its multiplicity?

I think a plugin/modifier would be best here. User select's the CVs
that should have their multiplicity changed, and applies the modifier.
It would have a property/spinner that would control the multiplicity
of the points it affected.

> Nurbs are stored as a set of CVs, knot vectors and weights, so you'll always
> have only one point to move even if it has a multiplicity >=1.

> This shouldnt be a problem either. A mesh can contain several curves, if you
> create 2 curves with different orders, and use the ConnectCurves plugin I'm
> currently working on, you'll have 2 linked curves sharing the end point.

The couple of sections above are an example of how k3d really shines.
Even though its got a lot of unfinished areas, the foundation allows
for so much. It's cool that those things have pretty much already been
supported in the back end.


Sincerely,

Joe Crawford
___________________________________
Owner - Celestine Studios and Joetainment Enterprises
Cell: 604-866-3050
Email: joetainment@...
Web: http://celestinestudios.com

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[Carsten Haubold]

I actually think that's the most important thing to have. Without a
"draw curve" tool, the rest of the tools would be unlikely to be used
by anyone.

However, I think the stuff that Tim is doing for tools will end up
helping there.

Okay, I'll have to talk to Tim about that then, but I'd really like to see this feature.

> Or would you prefer kind of an "edit multiplicity" plugin for a single CV
> where you can change its multiplicity?

I think a plugin/modifier would be best here. User select's the CVs
that should have their multiplicity changed, and applies the modifier.
It would have a property/spinner that would control the multiplicity
of the points it affected.

Hmm, if you have 3 CVs which had different multiplicity, should they be changed to the same value or to the same amout?
Well if you'd select one CV with this tool you might change it to your needs but.. Hum perhaps a boolean which of the two ways to choose?

> Nurbs are stored as a set of CVs, knot vectors and weights, so you'll always
> have only one point to move even if it has a multiplicity >=1.

> This shouldnt be a problem either. A mesh can contain several curves, if you
> create 2 curves with different orders, and use the ConnectCurves plugin I'm
> currently working on, you'll have 2 linked curves sharing the end point.

The couple of sections above are an example of how k3d really shines.
Even though its got a lot of unfinished areas, the foundation allows
for so much. It's cool that those things have pretty much already been
supported in the back end.

True, there's really much potential in the backend, and thats exactly what we GSoC students are there for: get the most out of it!

I'm confronted with another issue here: I just noticed that if I merge two CVs and remove the points from the mesh::points vector, I need to change all indices referring to the points.. Is there any better way to do this? Or should I just let the unused point in there not being referenced?
I dont think the latter is a good idea, but the most easy one :).

Cheers,
Carsten

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[bART Janssens-2]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Carsten Haubold <CarstenHaubold@...> wrote:
> Hmm, if you have 3 CVs which had different multiplicity, should they be
> changed to the same value or to the same amout?
> Well if you'd select one CV with this tool you might change it to your needs
> but.. Hum perhaps a boolean which of the two ways to choose?

I think a SetMultiplicity plugin would be the more important of the
two. After what Joe said, a plugin to make a sharp corner (by altering
multiplicity) would probably be even more important, since I guess
this is the main reason for editing multiplicity. All could of course
refer to the same basic function that adapts the knot multiplicity.

> I'm confronted with another issue here: I just noticed that if I merge two
> CVs and remove the points from the mesh::points vector, I need to change all
> indices referring to the points.. Is there any better way to do this? Or
> should I just let the unused point in there not being referenced?
>  I dont think the latter is a good idea, but the most easy one :).

The most complete way to address this would be to create additional
methods in k3dsdk/mesh_topology_data.h that can be used to see what
components are using a vertex. For example, you could add a
create_vertex_nurbs_curve_lookup, that would list the nurbs curves for
each vertex. When joining cuves, you should then check if the merged
point is used by other components, and if it is it has to be left in
the array.
Points that become unused can (and should) be removed, but this
requires keeping a mapping from the old point indices to the new
indices, and using that mapping to adapt all indices in the mesh.
Since this will probably come up more often, perhaps that should be
split off in a function in k3dsdk/mesh_operations.h, i.e.
remove_points(k3d::mesh& Mesh, const k3d::mesh::indices_t&
PointsToRemove)

Regards,

--
Bart

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[Joe Crawford]

On 4/28/08, Bart Janssens <bart.janssens@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Carsten Haubold <CarstenHaubold@...> wrote:
> > Hmm, if you have 3 CVs which had different multiplicity, should they be
> > changed to the same value or to the same amout?
> > Well if you'd select one CV with this tool you might change it to your needs
> > but.. Hum perhaps a boolean which of the two ways to choose?
>
> I think a SetMultiplicity plugin would be the more important of the
> two. After what Joe said, a plugin to make a sharp corner (by altering
> multiplicity) would probably be even more important,

A SetMultiplicity plugin could essentially be used to make a sharp corner right?

Really, the plugin I'm thinking of would set the multiplicity of all
point to the number/property given by the user. Later maybe a drop
down menu property could be used for "add multiplicity" or "subtract
multiplicity", but that isn't important yet.


Sincerely,

Joe Crawford
___________________________________
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Cell: 604-866-3050
Email: joetainment@...
Web: http://celestinestudios.com

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[Timothy M. Shead]

Carsten Haubold wrote:
> I'm confronted with another issue here: I just noticed that if I merge
> two CVs and remove the points from the mesh::points vector, I need to
> change all indices referring to the points.. Is there any better way
> to do this? Or should I just let the unused point in there not being
> referenced?
> I dont think the latter is a good idea, but the most easy one :).
I would go with the latter, at-least in the short-term. Keep in mind
that a point may be shared amongst any of the geometric primitives in a
mesh, not just NURBS.  Determining which points are truly unused - and
getting rid-of-them - is a good job for a plugin.

Cheers,
Tim

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[Carsten Haubold]

2008/4/29 Timothy M. Shead <tshead@...>:

> I dont think the latter is a good idea, but the most easy one :).

I would go with the latter, at-least in the short-term. Keep in mind
that a point may be shared amongst any of the geometric primitives in a
mesh, not just NURBS.  Determining which points are truly unused - and
getting rid-of-them - is a good job for a plugin.

 

Okay, then I'll just leave the point that is not used by the nurbs curve and make the plugin work that way.
I think adding this functionality is really an addition to the core as Bart said. I'll have a look at that, too.

Tim, Joe guessed the tools you're currently working on might help with a way to add points by clicking the viewport? Because kind of a draw tool would be great for editing Nurbs curves. Do you have anything coming which might help with that? Or any good idea how this might fit in?

Regards,
Carsten

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[Timothy M. Shead]

Carsten Haubold wrote:
>
> Tim, Joe guessed the tools you're currently working on might help with
> a way to add points by clicking the viewport? Because kind of a draw
> tool would be great for editing Nurbs curves. Do you have anything
> coming which might help with that? Or any good idea how this might fit in?
I want to set reasonable expectations on the work I'm doing - at some
point in the next few weeks, you will be able to create a tool as a
plugin, instead of hard-coding it into the user-interface layer.  That's
going to lower the barriers to writing tools, so it is a Good Thing, but
there's going to be lots of real work creating a tool.

Joe's priorities notwithstanding, everyone should be focusing on
pipeline components first, tools and UI second.  Get the design right
first, and the UI will follow ...

Cheers,
Tim


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[Joe Crawford]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 10:17 PM, Timothy M. Shead <tshead@...> wrote:

> Carsten Haubold wrote:
>  >
>  > Tim, Joe guessed the tools you're currently working on might help with
>  > a way to add points by clicking the viewport? Because kind of a draw
>  > tool would be great for editing Nurbs curves. Do you have anything
>  > coming which might help with that? Or any good idea how this might fit in?
>  I want to set reasonable expectations on the work I'm doing - at some
>  point in the next few weeks, you will be able to create a tool as a
>  plugin, instead of hard-coding it into the user-interface layer.  That's
>  going to lower the barriers to writing tools, so it is a Good Thing, but
>  there's going to be lots of real work creating a tool.
>
>  Joe's priorities notwithstanding, everyone should be focusing on
>  pipeline components first, tools and UI second.  Get the design right
>  first, and the UI will follow ...

Cool.

Most of the other things I'm putting into that list should work fine
as simple plugins. I'll leave the tool bit in there anyway, but
perhaps just skip by it for now. I'll have a bunch of other comments
soon...


Sincerely,

Joe Crawford
___________________________________
Owner - Celestine Studios and Joetainment Enterprises
Cell: 604-866-3050
Email: joetainment@...
Web: http://celestinestudios.com

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[Esben Stien]

"Carsten Haubold" <CarstenHaubold@...> writes:

> In means of the Nurbs curve connecting plugin: I intend to create 2
> plugins, one which takes the (2?) selected points and connects the
> curves at these, and another plugin which checks for the nearest end
> points and connects them (if they're above a given threshold - if
> the user wants that).

I would feel more comfortable to have it make a new spline between two
points that are not in contact with each other, then you would
attach these splines. This would be two operations.

Also, in these circumstances, I would want to lock the existing
splines; that is, make it impossible to change shape.

I'm also wondering about terminology; isn't attach/detach the proper NURBS
terminology for spline concatenate/cut?

--
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[Esben Stien]

"Carsten Haubold" <CarstenHaubold@...> writes:

> look at the list of plugins
> (http://www.k-3d.org/wiki/User:Caste/GSoC_Application) I proposed
> (the curves part for now) and tell me what you think

It looks really great and this work you're doing is amazing;).

I do miss offset from that list, which is very important for really
doing any serious NURBS work.

Also, if you remove knots from a spline, there should be a warning if
it changes the shape. A simplify function should give you options to
remove every possible knot without changing the shape and with
changing the shape.

Intersection and projection should also be mentioned there.

I assume snap is built in.

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[hoako]

Hi Esben!

Esben Stien wrote:

> "Carsten Haubold" <CarstenHaubold@...> writes:
>
>> look at the list of plugins
>> (http://www.k-3d.org/wiki/User:Caste/GSoC_Application) I proposed
>> (the curves part for now) and tell me what you think
>
> It looks really great and this work you're doing is amazing;).
>
> I do miss offset from that list, which is very important for really
> doing any serious NURBS work.
>
> Also, if you remove knots from a spline, there should be a warning if
> it changes the shape. A simplify function should give you options to
> remove every possible knot without changing the shape and with
> changing the shape.

That would be two Plugins
* RemoveKnot (manually selecting it)
* SimplifyCurve or AutoRemoveKnots or Some other name?
        * With certain threshold i guess
SimplifyCurve could be leave for later development. I guess.
Joe: what's your opinion?

>
> Intersection and projection should also be mentioned there.
>
> I assume snap is built in.
Snap is part of the K-3D architecture, although AFAIK it's a bit immature.


Cheers!
Joaquín


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