Help the ailing Frankenmac

[Bill Bradford]

The G4 CPU upgrade for the FrankenMac fell through, but I still got a gig
of RAM and a Radeon 7000 Mac Edition video card.

Anyway, I fired up the system (out of the box) for the first time a couple
of days ago.  384M RAM, one 9G SCSi HD, one 4G SCSI HD, one 36G SCSI HD,
CD-ROM, Zip drive, two Rage 128 video cards, Adaptec 2940OW SCSI card.

It booted the installed 10.3.9 and Ubuntu just fine.

I went in this afternoon to install OS9.. It booted off the CD just fine,
and I was in the "partitioning the HD" section when it locked up.  I
figured it just didn't like the HD config I had in it, and turned it off.

Went in, removed the small HDs, took out the video cards, put in the Radeon
7000, unplugged the IDE cable to the Zip drive.

Powered up - got a half-chime, no video.

I put the Rage 128 card back in, plugged the Zip drive data cable back in.

Same thing - half-chime, no video.

Since then, I've done the following:

- Tried booting both with and without the IDE cable plugged into the
  motherboard
- Tried booting with/without the SCSI card
- Tried booting with/without a video card (either Rage 128 or Radeon)
- Reset SMC/CUDA via button on motherboard
- Removed NVRAM battery from motherboard (its intact and fine)
- Tried to reset PRAM via keyboard; it doesn't get that far

Was I just the unlucky recipient of a box that ate itself after sitting on
a table unused for two days? 8-(

(and this is after I invested in an Airport Express so I could have network
connectivity in the living room)

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mark Benson-2]

On 11 May 2008, at 21:56, Bill Bradford wrote:
> Was I just the unlucky recipient of a box that ate itself after  
> sitting on
> a table unused for two days? 8-(
Pull the NVRAM battery and all the power from it and leave it to stew  
for a day or so. It's possible all the device swapping has mangled the  
PRAM values a bit. I've had this no end of times with PowerMacs.


--
Mark Benson

My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Visit my Homepage: <http://homepage.mac.com/markbenson>

"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Bill Bradford]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 10:04:28PM +0100, Mark wrote:
> Pull the NVRAM battery and all the power from it and leave it to stew for a
> day or so. It's possible all the device swapping has mangled the PRAM
> values a bit. I've had this no end of times with PowerMacs.

Will do.  Thanks.

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Bill Bradford]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 04:11:46PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote:
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 10:04:28PM +0100, Mark wrote:
> > Pull the NVRAM battery and all the power from it and leave it to stew for a
> > day or so. It's possible all the device swapping has mangled the PRAM
> > values a bit. I've had this no end of times with PowerMacs.
> Will do.  Thanks.

Question though - shouldn't the CUDA reset have done this?

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Bill Bradford]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 04:29:30PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote:
> Question though - shouldn't the CUDA reset have done this?

And some combination I just did of CUDA, unplug, battery, etc, now has it
working again.

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mark Benson-2]

On 11 May 2008, at 22:29, Bill Bradford wrote:

> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 04:11:46PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote:
>> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 10:04:28PM +0100, Mark wrote:
>>> Pull the NVRAM battery and all the power from it and leave it to  
>>> stew for a
>>> day or so. It's possible all the device swapping has mangled the  
>>> PRAM
>>> values a bit. I've had this no end of times with PowerMacs.
>> Will do.  Thanks.
>
> Question though - shouldn't the CUDA reset have done this?

You'd think so, but time tested method has taught me it doesn't matter  
what instantaneous method you use, there's no way you can actually  
clear it properly if it's corrupt. IIRC the CUDA doesn't reset  
everything in the PRAM anyway. I've had machines die so far they  
wouldn't even chime on power-on and nothing, including CUDA resetting  
worked. Removing all power sources effectively leads to the computer  
forgetting it ever existed, which is about the best factory reset  
you're ever gonna get!

--
Mark Benson

My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Visit my Homepage: <http://homepage.mac.com/markbenson>

"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mark Benson-2]

On 11 May 2008, at 22:41, Bill Bradford wrote:
> On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 04:29:30PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote:
>> Question though - shouldn't the CUDA reset have done this?
>
> And some combination I just did of CUDA, unplug, battery, etc, now  
> has it
> working again.

Did you do the remove power/battery trick? It takes longer sometimes  
than others. I've had it take 24 hours and 5 mins before now. I just  
recommend a day or so just to let the Mac know who's the frickin'  
daddy, ya know :)

Anyway, Conga Rats!!!

:)

--
Mark Benson

My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Visit my Homepage: <http://homepage.mac.com/markbenson>

"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Bill Bradford]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 10:43:33PM +0100, Mark wrote:
> You'd think so, but time tested method has taught me it doesn't matter what
> instantaneous method you use, there's no way you can actually clear it
> properly if it's corrupt. IIRC the CUDA doesn't reset everything in the
> PRAM anyway. I've had machines die so far they wouldn't even chime on
> power-on and nothing, including CUDA resetting worked. Removing all power
> sources effectively leads to the computer forgetting it ever existed, which
> is about the best factory reset you're ever gonna get!

Well, whatever combination I did of:

- removing power
- removing NVRAM battery
- resetting CUDA
- holding down CUDA
- holding down power switch

etc., worked - the system is now configured as such:

- 4 256M PC100 DIMMs (thanks Will!)
- One single 36G HD (tempted to install an 80G IDE instead tho, if I can
                        get my hands on one)
- Radeon 7000 PCI Mac Edition video card
- Removed the ZIP drive completely

OS 9.2.2 is now installing.  I've got the HD partitioned five ways, so I
can do this setup:

- OS9.2.2 (mostly for firmware updates, etc)
- OSX 10.1 (if I can get 10.0 install media plus a 10.1 update CD
  somewhere - gave mine away years ago)
- OSX 10.2 (have media images)
- OSX 10.3 (install media came with the box)
- OSX 10.4 (got it around here somewhere)

Should be interesting...

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Bill Bradford]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 05:05:10PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote:
> OS 9.2.2 is now installing.  I've got the HD partitioned five ways, so I
> can do this setup:

9.2.2 is installed.  10.2.8 is installed and patched, and I've got
10.3 CDs ready to go tomorrow evening.

My next goal will be to find the "proper" version of iLife and iWork (if it
exists) for each version of the OS.

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Peter Corlett]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 05:05:10PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote:
[...]
> - One single 36G HD (tempted to install an 80G IDE instead tho, if I can
> get my hands on one)

FWIW, I dropped a 200GB one in my Frankenmac and it worked, although only
the first 128GB was visible. "Small" (i.e. 80-300GB) ATA disks are pretty
inexpensive, even new ones.

The next thing I'm going to try in it is a PC RAID card I've got knocking
abouth which I suspect also has OF support.
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[William Enestvedt]

Bill asked:
>
> Question though - shouldn't the CUDA reset have done this?
>
   I thought the CUDA button only cleared the power management settings.


- Will
--
Will Enestvedt
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[Bill Bradford]

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 08:32:56AM -0400, William Enestvedt wrote:
>    I thought the CUDA button only cleared the power management settings.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86760

"The Power Management Unit (PMU) on the Power Macintosh G3 computers, Power
 Mac G4 (PCI) and Power Mac G4 Cube is known as the "Cuda button". In the
 later models It is identical in function and appearance to the PMU.

 Resetting the Cuda or PMU also resets date and time settings. After the
 reset, on some Power Macs, the system clock is set to 00:00, 01 Jan 1904
 for computers with Mac OS 9 or 00:00 (GMT), 01 Jan 1970 for computers with
 Mac OS X.

 The PMU is a microcontroller chip that controls power functions for the
 computer. The PMU is a computer within a computer, as it has its own
 memory, software, firmware, input/output, a CPU, and more. Its function is
 to:

    * Tell the computer to turn on, turn off, sleep, wake, idle, etc.
    * Manage system resets from various commands.
    * Maintain parameter RAM (PRAM).
    * Manage the real-time clock.

 Over time, the settings in the Power Manager may become unusable, which can
 result in operational anomalies with the computer. Examples include not
 turning on, not waking from sleep, or not seeing devices plugged into the
 USB and FireWire ports, among others."

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[William Enestvedt]

It appears I was (comprehensively) mistaken.

   Hmm... Well, it's a good thing I got out of Mac support!

- Will
--
Will Enestvedt
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[Bill Bradford]

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:17:24AM -0400, William Enestvedt wrote:
> It appears I was (comprehensively) mistaken.

its best to summarize it as:  

CUDA button = waving a dead chicken

8-)

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Steve Hatle]

On 5/12/08 10:21 AM, "Bill Bradford" wrote:

> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 11:17:24AM -0400, William Enestvedt wrote:
>> It appears I was (comprehensively) mistaken.
>
> its best to summarize it as:
>
> CUDA button = waving a dead chicken
>
> 8-)
>
> Bill

That's true- I've had it bring machines back from the dead, and I've had it
do absolutely nothing.

Like Bill's experience, the CUDA button along with battery pulling, NVRAM
resets, PRAM resets and the dead chicken are all effective tools in
combination to get a Mac back on it's feet :-)

Steve
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[Mark Benson-2]

On 12 May 2008, at 16:32, Steve Hatle wrote:
>
> That's true- I've had it bring machines back from the dead, and I've  
> had it
> do absolutely nothing.
>
> Like Bill's experience, the CUDA button along with battery pulling,  
> NVRAM
> resets, PRAM resets and the dead chicken are all effective tools in
> combination to get a Mac back on it's feet :-)

I tell ya, you'll still not get a better factory reset then pulling  
the power and battery and leaving it to sulk. It's worked for me on an  
uncountable number of previous occasions. I wonder if pulling the  
battery and pushing the CUDA switch for 10 secs actually accelerates  
the process? It's hard to tell with diagnosing Mac hardware, as  
there's a lot of folklore and contradicting information, 90% of which  
is total Bullshit that Mac hardware techies conclude from this one  
time when they did something hey can't actually remember what they did  
and it worked so that's how EVERYONE ELSE should do it in future. Some  
of them are almost as bad as the users... :\

On the subject of helping ailing Frankenmacs...

I need help to revive my 9600. It killed a perfectly good Radeon 7000,  
then a few months later it upped and stopped working. It's been in a  
total sulk, and won't boot up (power but no chime). I've tried  
**everything** and concluded it may actually be the logic board that's  
knackered. Shame, I really like the 9600. It's a joy to work on  
(unlike it's replacement). Anyone (in the UK) got a 9600 or 8600 board  
skulking around they know works? I've got all the other parts sat here  
in a 8550 WGS at the moment (horrible, horrible Mac, but it works  
pretty well).

--
Mark Benson

My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Visit my Homepage: <http://homepage.mac.com/markbenson>

"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
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rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Mike Hebel]

I got an Ugh Level grumpy message from: Mark

> On 12 May 2008, at 16:32, Steve Hatle wrote:
>>
>> That's true- I've had it bring machines back from the dead, and I've
>> had it
>> do absolutely nothing.
>>
>> Like Bill's experience, the CUDA button along with battery pulling,
>> NVRAM
>> resets, PRAM resets and the dead chicken are all effective tools in
>> combination to get a Mac back on it's feet :-)
>
> I tell ya, you'll still not get a better factory reset then pulling
> the power and battery and leaving it to sulk. It's worked for me on an
> uncountable number of previous occasions. I wonder if pulling the
> battery and pushing the CUDA switch for 10 secs actually accelerates
> the process? It's hard to tell with diagnosing Mac hardware, as
> there's a lot of folklore and contradicting information, 90% of which
> is total Bullshit that Mac hardware techies conclude from this one
> time when they did something hey can't actually remember what they did
> and it worked so that's how EVERYONE ELSE should do it in future. Some
> of them are almost as bad as the users... :\

I will agree with most of this statement.  And I've used the power-off/no
battery technique before myself.

> On the subject of helping ailing Frankenmacs...
>
> I need help to revive my 9600. It killed a perfectly good Radeon 7000,
> then a few months later it upped and stopped working. It's been in a
> total sulk, and won't boot up (power but no chime). I've tried
> **everything** and concluded it may actually be the logic board that's
> knackered. Shame, I really like the 9600. It's a joy to work on
> (unlike it's replacement). Anyone (in the UK) got a 9600 or 8600 board
> skulking around they know works? I've got all the other parts sat here
> in a 8550 WGS at the moment (horrible, horrible Mac, but it works
> pretty well).

Curiosity question - is a 9500 case able to take a 9600 system board?

--
Mike Hebel


See with eyes unclouded, think with mind uncluttered, act with heart
unchained!
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[Mark Benson-2]

On 12 May 2008, at 19:41, Mike Hebel wrote:
>
> Curiosity question - is a 9500 case able to take a 9600 system board?

I'd say an unqualified No. The board are dimensionally different IIRC.  
The stuff on the board is almost identical, but they won't swap cases  
IIRC.

--
Mark Benson

My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Visit my Homepage: <http://homepage.mac.com/markbenson>

"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue