Fw: Ship's registration

[Dot & Dave Priest]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dot & Dave Priest" <davepriest@...>
To: <dba-ccg@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:06 AM
Subject: Ship's registration

> Hi everyone,
>
> Dot & I are about to make an offer for a tjalk presently registered in
> Holland. The tjalk is slightly less than 20 metres in length and we plan
> to use her to cruise in Europe; probably mostly in France. Has anyone
> investigated the pros and cons of leaving the boat on the Dutch registry
> versus putting her onto the British small ships register or even
> registering her in Belgium? Would one have to insure her with an insurer
> from the country of registration? Any advice or comment would be most
> welcome.
>
> Dot & Dave Priest
> Late of 'Corita B'

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[Patrick Stephens]

It is easiest to keep the Dutch Registry. The notary handling the sale
does everything.
In almost eight years of cruising and living in Europe, mostly France,
with my 21 meter dutch registered luxemotor, I have never had anyone
question the registry. That includes almost three years with a
residential mooring with VNF.

Good cruising,

Patrick
Bateau "Why Not"
Somewhere in France



Dot & Dave Priest wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dot & Dave Priest" <davepriest@...>
> To: <dba-ccg@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:06 AM
> Subject: Ship's registration
>
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Dot & I are about to make an offer for a tjalk presently registered in
>> Holland. The tjalk is slightly less than 20 metres in length and we plan
>> to use her to cruise in Europe; probably mostly in France. Has anyone
>> investigated the pros and cons of leaving the boat on the Dutch registry
>> versus putting her onto the British small ships register or even
>> registering her in Belgium? Would one have to insure her with an insurer
>> from the country of registration? Any advice or comment would be most
>> welcome.
>>
>> Dot & Dave Priest
>> Late of 'Corita B'
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
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[drever-2]

Hello, Dave:

We have a tjalk less than 20 meters which is Dutch registered.  Have been
cruising and winter mooring in France for nine years.  Have never had
anyone question the registration.  One thing to consider is that the Dutch
authorities will have to strike through the previous owner's registration
number and chisel your number in the steel on the aft of your barge.  In
our case, they (the Kadaster people) came by our mooring after we had
returned to the United States about three months after we registered the
boat.  We had given our address as that of the previous owner, and he took
them down to the barge and handled all details.  To register the barge in
Holland, you will need a Dutch address.  Many people use someone like
Sander Dove, the broker.  

Regards,

John Drever
The Vrijheid.

PS:  Many years ago, you referred Jan Hoogkamp to us; he took us down to
the French border.  I met you very briefly in Tournas in July 2005 while
you were having dinner with your Corita B charter group.  Welcome back.


> [Original Message]
> From: Dot & Dave Priest <davepriest@...>
> To: DBA The Barge Association Navigation list
<dbacruising@...>

> Date: 7/10/2008 7:25:13 AM
> Subject: DBAc: Fw: Ship's registration
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dot & Dave Priest" <davepriest@...>
> To: <dba-ccg@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:06 AM
> Subject: Ship's registration
>
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Dot & I are about to make an offer for a tjalk presently registered in
> > Holland. The tjalk is slightly less than 20 metres in length and we

plan
> > to use her to cruise in Europe; probably mostly in France. Has anyone
> > investigated the pros and cons of leaving the boat on the Dutch
registry
> > versus putting her onto the British small ships register or even
> > registering her in Belgium? Would one have to insure her with an
insurer
> > from the country of registration? Any advice or comment would be most
> > welcome.
> >
> > Dot & Dave Priest
> > Late of 'Corita B'
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
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DBAcruising@... or
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[Bob and Bobbie Marsland]

Hello Dave & Dot,

We have kept La Chouette on the Dutch register all the 16 years we've  
owned her with absolutely no problems whatsoever.  We do insure with a  
dutch firm, Kuipers, but see no reason why a company of a different  
country should not be used.

All the best,

Bob & Bobbie

Bob & Bobbie Marsland
MS La Chouette

NB: New e-mail: BobandBobbie@...





On 10 Jul 2008, at 13:24, Dot & Dave Priest wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dot & Dave Priest" <davepriest@...>
> To: <dba-ccg@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:06 AM
> Subject: Ship's registration
>
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Dot & I are about to make an offer for a tjalk presently registered  
>> in
>> Holland. The tjalk is slightly less than 20 metres in length and we  
>> plan
>> to use her to cruise in Europe; probably mostly in France. Has anyone
>> investigated the pros and cons of leaving the boat on the Dutch  
>> registry
>> versus putting her onto the British small ships register or even
>> registering her in Belgium? Would one have to insure her with an  
>> insurer
>> from the country of registration? Any advice or comment would be most
>> welcome.
>>
>> Dot & Dave Priest
>> Late of 'Corita B'
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
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>  To unsubscribe from this list click here: mailto:DBAcruising-request@...&Body=unsubscribe
>  or send an email to DBAcruising-request@... with  
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[Peter Cawson]

I've just purchased a Dutch registered vessel of just under 20 m - I hope it's not the same boat!
 
I asked it to be removed from the Dutch registry for 2 reasons.  If it has a mortgage, it cannot be taken off - so I'm told.  Thus you can be sure that there's no outstanding mortgage.  Also I would prefer to fly the red ensign - it may be considered fraudulent for a UK resident to fly the Dutch flag, although probably not illegal.
 
It costs only £25 to register on SSR and this can be done online - I did it yesterday.  You don't need a "port of registration" so no need to show anything other than the vessel's name (and SSR no) on its hull.
 
The previous insurance company (Dutch) is prepared to transfer the policy to me, but the premium seems to be higher.  I've decided to use Geoff Bradshaw's DBA scheme offered through GJW Direct, although other schemes may be just as good.  Geoff was a founder member of DBA so knows what barge owners want.
 
Best wishes
 
Peter
"Anelja"quote author="Dot & Dave Priest">

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dot & Dave Priest" <[e-mail]>
To: <[e-mail]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:06 AM
Subject: Ship's registration


> Hi everyone,
>
> Dot & I are about to make an offer for a tjalk presently registered in
> Holland. The tjalk is slightly less than 20 metres in length and we plan
> to use her to cruise in Europe; probably mostly in France. Has anyone
> investigated the pros and cons of leaving the boat on the Dutch registry
> versus putting her onto the British small ships register or even
> registering her in Belgium? Would one have to insure her with an insurer
> from the country of registration? Any advice or comment would be most
> welcome.
>
> Dot & Dave Priest
> Late of 'Corita B'


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[Tam Murrell-2]

Hi,

The upside of SSR Registry is that it is quick, easy, and cheap. The  
downside is that it is not proof of ownership - I could register your  
vessel in my name, waive that registry document at a prospective  
buyer and sell your boat, unless you got wind of it to stop me. At  
the other end, when you come to sell the boat, a prospective buyer  
could not use it as collateral against a mortgage to fund the  
purchase. Remaining on the Dutch register would have kept that option  
open (and is neither fraudulent nor illegal), as would putting it on  
the full British register.

Regards

Tam Murrell

T & D. Murrell's "Boating for Enthusiasts"
m/v "Friesland"

new e-mail address:
tamanddi@...
website: www.bargehandling.com

tel/fax UK: 0208 755 1554 or 0207 681 3966
mob. UK 07802 405 732
mob. France 0033 (0)603 845033

Don't forget your "Barge Handling in France" instruction video & DVD





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[Peter Cawson]

Hi Tam

Thanks for this.  However, whilst I accept that the Dutch register may be more thorough in investigating ownership, I don't think you could register my boat in your name on SSR.  The SSR would (or at least should) queery the identical name and, more importantly, the unique Build Number.  Also, following your arguement, what's to stop you registering on SSR an already Dutch-registered vessel and offering it for sale?   A purchaser, or his surveyor / notary should satisfy himself of the seller's genuine ownership by other means such as previous sales invoice, etc.  

The vast majority of British vessels are registered with SSR and you rarely hear of vessels being bought from thieves by unsuspecting buyers.  Thieves would normally resell in distant markets after more comprehensive identity changes so that any registration would be worthless.  

I wasn't suggesting that flying another nation's flag was illegal, but that I would feel a fraud if I choose to fly the Dutch (or any other foreign nation's) flag on my British owned and crewed vessel.  Other waterways users tend to recognise fellow countrymen by the flag they fly.  I'm not sure I would prefer to be cordially greeted by every Dutchman on the river and ignored by the English!  On second thoughts ..... !

Best wishes

Peter


Hi,

The upside of SSR Registry is that it is quick, easy, and cheap. The  
downside is that it is not proof of ownership - I could register your  
vessel in my name, waive that registry document at a prospective  
buyer and sell your boat, unless you got wind of it to stop me. At  
the other end, when you come to sell the boat, a prospective buyer  
could not use it as collateral against a mortgage to fund the  
purchase. Remaining on the Dutch register would have kept that option  
open (and is neither fraudulent nor illegal), as would putting it on  
the full British register.

Regards

Tam Murrell

T & D. Murrell's "Boating for Enthusiasts"
m/v "Friesland"

[Tam Murrell-2]

My comments about registering a ship which you did not actually own  
were of course tongue in cheek. However unlike for the full British  
registry there is no requirement for a person registering a vessel on  
the SSR to prove legal ownership of it; nor is there any requirement  
for the vessel to have a unique name. I would be very surprised if  
the Build number were verified in any way either - it is not a  
mandatory field on the application form. The SSR is simply a cheap  
and easy way to have a document (well, a cruddy little plastic card  
that has to be renewed every five years nowadays) that states  
whatever details you fed into the system and a unique SSR number in a  
format that satisfies the inspection requirements of most  
authorities. When it was introduced it was very difficult and  
expensive to put a secondhand ship on the full Register, especially  
if it had been "imported" in any sense. To that extent it serves its  
purpose very well.

Regards

Tam

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[Peter Cawson]

Tam

You're absolutely right about the dismal lack of "security" with the SSR.  After reading various postings here, I questioned them about any checks that were made - easy enough on a computer-based system.  No, there's no requirement for unique name (good thing too) - No, you no longer need a "home port" - No, they don't even check that your unique Hull Number is not already registered.  So, as you say, anyone stealing my vessel can simply apply for fresh SSR registration without even having to change the name or hull number - their new SSR number and certificate will simply be produced and sent to them.  Buyers should obviously not accept SSR registration as any proof of ownership - nor any other registration for that matter, I would suggest.

However it is nice to have a friendly Red Ensign rather than some foreign flag, flying proudly from one's flagstaff and I'm please to have changed to British registry.

Peter


My comments about registering a ship which you did not actually own  
were of course tongue in cheek. However unlike for the full British  
registry there is no requirement for a person registering a vessel on  
the SSR to prove legal ownership of it; nor is there any requirement  
for the vessel to have a unique name. I would be very surprised if  
the Build number were verified in any way either - it is not a  
mandatory field on the application form. The SSR is simply a cheap  
and easy way to have a document (well, a cruddy little plastic card  
that has to be renewed every five years nowadays) that states  
whatever details you fed into the system and a unique SSR number in a  
format that satisfies the inspection requirements of most  
authorities. When it was introduced it was very difficult and  
expensive to put a secondhand ship on the full Register, especially  
if it had been "imported" in any sense. To that extent it serves its  
purpose very well.

Regards

Tam