Firefox/Iceweasel 3: agony of the snail

[Jim McCloskey]

An upgrade to testing this afternoon unexpectedly brought me
Firefox/Iceweasel 3.0, which was fairly exciting. Here, though, it is
just agonizingly slow---10-12 seconds between clicking `Bookmarks' in
the Toolbar and the display of the menu. Scrolling through:

  http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/thrd4.html

is like wading through thick, thick mud. When one moves from screen to
screen, iceweasel/firefox takes about 7 or 8 seconds to redraw its
window. It's really unusable.

Is anyone else seeing this?

Epiphany behaves similarly, but Konqueror and Mozilla are wonderfully
fast, suggesting that the problem (whatever it is) lies with Gecko.

This last suspicion was confirmed when I installed epiphany-webkit and
called it explicitly. It was just as fast as Konqueror and Mozilla.

Upgrading to 3.0.1 in unstable makes matters, if anything, worse.

Downgrading to version 2.0 in stable restores normal speed and usability.

The problem is the same in the binary version available directly from mozilla.org.

sigh

Jim


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[Florian Kulzer-3]

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 00:24:33 -0700, Jim McCloskey wrote:

>
> An upgrade to testing this afternoon unexpectedly brought me
> Firefox/Iceweasel 3.0, which was fairly exciting. Here, though, it is
> just agonizingly slow---10-12 seconds between clicking `Bookmarks' in
> the Toolbar and the display of the menu. Scrolling through:
>
>   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/thrd4.html
>
> is like wading through thick, thick mud. When one moves from screen to
> screen, iceweasel/firefox takes about 7 or 8 seconds to redraw its
> window. It's really unusable.
>
> Is anyone else seeing this?
>
> Epiphany behaves similarly, but Konqueror and Mozilla are wonderfully
> fast, suggesting that the problem (whatever it is) lies with Gecko.
>
> This last suspicion was confirmed when I installed epiphany-webkit and
> called it explicitly. It was just as fast as Konqueror and Mozilla.
>
> Upgrading to 3.0.1 in unstable makes matters, if anything, worse.
>
> Downgrading to version 2.0 in stable restores normal speed and usability.
>
> The problem is the same in the binary version available directly from mozilla.org.

I suspect that this might have something to do with your video driver
and the acceleration method that is used. Please post the output of
these two commands:

grep -B1 -A4 'drivers/' /var/log/Xorg.0.log

grep 'Accel\|XAA\|EXA' /var/log/Xorg.0.log

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          Florian   |


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[Hugo Vanwoerkom]

Florian Kulzer wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 00:24:33 -0700, Jim McCloskey wrote:
>> An upgrade to testing this afternoon unexpectedly brought me
>> Firefox/Iceweasel 3.0, which was fairly exciting. Here, though, it is
>> just agonizingly slow---10-12 seconds between clicking `Bookmarks' in
>> the Toolbar and the display of the menu. Scrolling through:
>>
>>   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/thrd4.html
>>
>> is like wading through thick, thick mud. When one moves from screen to
>> screen, iceweasel/firefox takes about 7 or 8 seconds to redraw its
>> window. It's really unusable.
>>
>> Is anyone else seeing this?
>>
>> Epiphany behaves similarly, but Konqueror and Mozilla are wonderfully
>> fast, suggesting that the problem (whatever it is) lies with Gecko.
>>
>> This last suspicion was confirmed when I installed epiphany-webkit and
>> called it explicitly. It was just as fast as Konqueror and Mozilla.
>>
>> Upgrading to 3.0.1 in unstable makes matters, if anything, worse.
>>
>> Downgrading to version 2.0 in stable restores normal speed and usability.
>>
>> The problem is the same in the binary version available directly from mozilla.org.
>
> I suspect that this might have something to do with your video driver
> and the acceleration method that is used. Please post the output of
> these two commands:
>
> grep -B1 -A4 'drivers/' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
>
> grep 'Accel\|XAA\|EXA' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
>

Very good point:

/home/hugoSun Jul 20-09:43:32SDB5# grep -B1 -A4 'drivers/'
/var/log/Xorg.0.log
(II) LoadModule: "nvidia"
(II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//nvidia_drv.so
(II) Module nvidia: vendor="NVIDIA Corporation"
         compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0
         Module class: X.Org Video Driver
(II) LoadModule: "evdev"
/home/hugoSun Jul 20-09:43:38SDB5# grep 'Accel\|XAA\|EXA'
/var/log/Xorg.0.log
(**) NVIDIA(0): Option "RenderAccel" "True"
(II) NVIDIA(0): NVIDIA 3D Acceleration Architecture Initialized
/home/hugoSun Jul 20-09:44:17SDB5#

I see no performance problems with latest Sid IW.

Hugo


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[Ron Johnson]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 07/20/08 09:46, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
> Florian Kulzer wrote:
[snip]

>>
>> I suspect that this might have something to do with your video driver
>> and the acceleration method that is used. Please post the output of
>> these two commands:
>>
>> grep -B1 -A4 'drivers/' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
>>
>> grep 'Accel\|XAA\|EXA' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
>>
>
> Very good point:
>
> /home/hugoSun Jul 20-09:43:32SDB5# grep -B1 -A4 'drivers/'
> /var/log/Xorg.0.log
> (II) LoadModule: "nvidia"
> (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//nvidia_drv.so
> (II) Module nvidia: vendor="NVIDIA Corporation"
>         compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0
>         Module class: X.Org Video Driver
> (II) LoadModule: "evdev"
> /home/hugoSun Jul 20-09:43:38SDB5# grep 'Accel\|XAA\|EXA'
> /var/log/Xorg.0.log
> (**) NVIDIA(0): Option "RenderAccel" "True"
> (II) NVIDIA(0): NVIDIA 3D Acceleration Architecture Initialized
> /home/hugoSun Jul 20-09:44:17SDB5#
>
> I see no performance problems with latest Sid IW.

I also see good video performance.

$ grep -B1 -A4 'drivers/' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
(II) LoadModule: "nvidia"
(II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//nvidia_drv.so
(II) Module nvidia: vendor="NVIDIA Corporation"
        compiled for 4.0.2, module version = 1.0.0
        Module class: X.Org Video Driver
(II) LoadModule: "kbd"


$ grep 'Accel\|XAA\|EXA' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
(II) NVIDIA(0): NVIDIA 3D Acceleration Architecture Initialized
(WW) NVIDIA(0): Option "XAANoOffscreenPixmaps" is not used

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

"Kittens give Morbo gas.  In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed."
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[Carl Fink-6]

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:24:33AM -0700, Jim McCloskey wrote:

>
> An upgrade to testing this afternoon unexpectedly brought me
> Firefox/Iceweasel 3.0, which was fairly exciting. Here, though, it is
> just agonizingly slow---10-12 seconds between clicking `Bookmarks' in
> the Toolbar and the display of the menu. Scrolling through:
>
>   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/thrd4.html
>
> is like wading through thick, thick mud. When one moves from screen to
> screen, iceweasel/firefox takes about 7 or 8 seconds to redraw its
> window. It's really unusable.
>
> Is anyone else seeing this?
>
> Epiphany behaves similarly, but Konqueror and Mozilla are wonderfully
> fast, suggesting that the problem (whatever it is) lies with Gecko.
>
> This last suspicion was confirmed when I installed epiphany-webkit and
> called it explicitly. It was just as fast as Konqueror and Mozilla.
>
> Upgrading to 3.0.1 in unstable makes matters, if anything, worse.
>
> Downgrading to version 2.0 in stable restores normal speed and usability.
>
> The problem is the same in the binary version available directly from mozilla.org.

In my case, a reboot was required to load the new versions of about a dozen
libraries.  (Killing and restarting X did not do it.)  Once I did that,
weird rendering problems in Gecko went away.  It can't hurt.
--
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Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com.  Reviews!  Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!


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[Bill Wohler]

Jim McCloskey <mcclosk@...> writes:

> An upgrade to testing this afternoon unexpectedly brought me
> Firefox/Iceweasel 3.0, which was fairly exciting. Here, though, it is
> just agonizingly slow---10-12 seconds between clicking `Bookmarks' in
> the Toolbar and the display of the menu. Scrolling through:
>
>   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/thrd4.html
>
> is like wading through thick, thick mud. When one moves from screen to
> screen, iceweasel/firefox takes about 7 or 8 seconds to redraw its
> window. It's really unusable.
>
> Is anyone else seeing this?

Nope.

    $ grep -B1 -A4 'drivers/' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
    (II) LoadModule: "radeon"
    (II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//radeon_drv.so
    (II) Module radeon: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
            compiled for 1.4.2, module version = 4.3.0
            Module class: X.Org Video Driver
            ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 2.0
    $ grep 'Accel\|XAA\|EXA' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
    (==) RADEON(0): Using XAA acceleration architecture
    (II) RADEON(0): Using XFree86 Acceleration Architecture (XAA)
    (II) RADEON(0): Acceleration enabled

It sounds like others are OK too. The good news is that once you get
your X drivers straightened out, your entire UI experience will
probably improve dramatically.

Florian, thanks for the grep examples. I didn't know about the -B and
-A flags, and they are bound to be handy!

--
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[Ron Johnson]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 07/20/08 11:44, Carl Fink wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:24:33AM -0700, Jim McCloskey wrote:
>> An upgrade to testing this afternoon unexpectedly brought me
>> Firefox/Iceweasel 3.0, which was fairly exciting. Here, though, it is
>> just agonizingly slow---10-12 seconds between clicking `Bookmarks' in
>> the Toolbar and the display of the menu. Scrolling through:
>>
>>   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/thrd4.html
>>
>> is like wading through thick, thick mud. When one moves from screen to
>> screen, iceweasel/firefox takes about 7 or 8 seconds to redraw its
>> window. It's really unusable.
>>
>> Is anyone else seeing this?
>>
>> Epiphany behaves similarly, but Konqueror and Mozilla are wonderfully
>> fast, suggesting that the problem (whatever it is) lies with Gecko.
>>
>> This last suspicion was confirmed when I installed epiphany-webkit and
>> called it explicitly. It was just as fast as Konqueror and Mozilla.
>>
>> Upgrading to 3.0.1 in unstable makes matters, if anything, worse.
>>
>> Downgrading to version 2.0 in stable restores normal speed and usability.
>>
>> The problem is the same in the binary version available directly from mozilla.org.
>
> In my case, a reboot was required to load the new versions of about a dozen
> libraries.  (Killing and restarting X did not do it.)  Once I did that,
> weird rendering problems in Gecko went away.  It can't hurt.

Most of you will yawn, and think, "there he goes again", but this
why I don't like display managers.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

"Kittens give Morbo gas.  In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed."
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[Kelly Clowers]

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Jim McCloskey <mcclosk@...> wrote:

>
> An upgrade to testing this afternoon unexpectedly brought me
> Firefox/Iceweasel 3.0, which was fairly exciting. Here, though, it is
> just agonizingly slow---10-12 seconds between clicking `Bookmarks' in
> the Toolbar and the display of the menu. Scrolling through:
>
>  http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/thrd4.html
>
> is like wading through thick, thick mud. When one moves from screen to
> screen, iceweasel/firefox takes about 7 or 8 seconds to redraw its
> window. It's really unusable.
>
> Is anyone else seeing this?

I have not seen this.


> Epiphany behaves similarly, but Konqueror and Mozilla are wonderfully
> fast, suggesting that the problem (whatever it is) lies with Gecko.

If Mozilla is fast then the problem is in your FF installation, not in Gecko.


> This last suspicion was confirmed when I installed epiphany-webkit and
> called it explicitly. It was just as fast as Konqueror and Mozilla.
>
> Upgrading to 3.0.1 in unstable makes matters, if anything, worse.
>
> Downgrading to version 2.0 in stable restores normal speed and usability.
>
> The problem is the same in the binary version available directly from mozilla.org.

Have you tried cleaning your profile or tried a new profile? And as some others
said, restarting can sometimes fix issues with old libraries being
used, although
theoretically it shouldn't be needed.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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[Florian Kulzer-3]

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 09:59:22 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote:

> Jim McCloskey writes:
>
> > An upgrade to testing this afternoon unexpectedly brought me
> > Firefox/Iceweasel 3.0, which was fairly exciting. Here, though, it is
> > just agonizingly slow---10-12 seconds between clicking `Bookmarks' in
> > the Toolbar and the display of the menu. Scrolling through:
> >
> >   http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/thrd4.html
> >
> > is like wading through thick, thick mud. When one moves from screen to
> > screen, iceweasel/firefox takes about 7 or 8 seconds to redraw its
> > window. It's really unusable.
> >
> > Is anyone else seeing this?
>
> Nope.
>
>     $ grep -B1 -A4 'drivers/' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
>     (II) LoadModule: "radeon"

[...]

>     (==) RADEON(0): Using XAA acceleration architecture
>     (II) RADEON(0): Using XFree86 Acceleration Architecture (XAA)
>     (II) RADEON(0): Acceleration enabled
>
> It sounds like others are OK too. The good news is that once you get
> your X drivers straightened out, your entire UI experience will
> probably improve dramatically.

OK, our mini-survey so far:

nvidia driver using nvidia's RenderAccel: fine (Hugo, Ron)
radeon driver with XAA: fine (Bill)

My experience with Intel 82Q963/Q965 and the Xorg intel driver:

with EXA: not as bad as what Jim describes, but slow enough to seriously
          deteriorate the browsing experience

with XAA: generally quite fast, only web sites with excessive use of
          background images slow it down noticeably, but not unbearably

Jim, if you have an intel card and use EXA (the default these days) then
a switch to XAA will improve your browsing experience significantly.

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[nick lidakis]

Ron Johnson wrote:

>
> Most of you will yawn, and think, "there he goes again", but this
> why I don't like display managers.

Can you elaborate? With a display manager one cannot kill X to make new
changes, like the aforementioned libraries, to take effect?


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[Kelly Clowers]

On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Florian Kulzer
<florian.kulzer+debian@...> wrote:

>
> OK, our mini-survey so far:
>
> nvidia driver using nvidia's RenderAccel: fine (Hugo, Ron)
> radeon driver with XAA: fine (Bill)
>
> My experience with Intel 82Q963/Q965 and the Xorg intel driver:
>
> with EXA: not as bad as what Jim describes, but slow enough to seriously
>          deteriorate the browsing experience
>
> with XAA: generally quite fast, only web sites with excessive use of
>          background images slow it down noticeably, but not unbearably
>
> Jim, if you have an intel card and use EXA (the default these days) then
> a switch to XAA will improve your browsing experience significantly.

I  have found EXA to work very well with the Radeon drivers (r300/r400).


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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[Ron Johnson]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 07/20/08 12:44, Florian Kulzer wrote:
[snip]
>
> OK, our mini-survey so far:
>
> nvidia driver using nvidia's RenderAccel: fine (Hugo, Ron)

Actually, I do *not* have RenderAccel enabled.

$ grep 'Accel\|XAA\|EXA' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
(II) NVIDIA(0): NVIDIA 3D Acceleration Architecture Initialized
(WW) NVIDIA(0): Option "XAANoOffscreenPixmaps" is not used

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

"Kittens give Morbo gas.  In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed."
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[Ron Johnson]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On 07/20/08 13:01, Nick Lidakis wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>> Most of you will yawn, and think, "there he goes again", but this
>> why I don't like display managers.
>
> Can you elaborate? With a display manager one cannot kill X to make new
> changes, like the aforementioned libraries, to take effect?

According to Carl's experience, no.  Maybe he did something wrong?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA  USA

"Kittens give Morbo gas.  In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed."
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[Nate Bargmann-4]

* Florian Kulzer <florian.kulzer+debian@...> [2008 Jul 20 13:02 -0500]:

> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 09:59:22 -0700, Bill Wohler wrote:
> > Nope.
> >
> >     $ grep -B1 -A4 'drivers/' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
> >     (II) LoadModule: "radeon"
>
> [...]
>
> >     (==) RADEON(0): Using XAA acceleration architecture
> >     (II) RADEON(0): Using XFree86 Acceleration Architecture (XAA)
> >     (II) RADEON(0): Acceleration enabled
> >
> > It sounds like others are OK too. The good news is that once you get
> > your X drivers straightened out, your entire UI experience will
> > probably improve dramatically.
>
> OK, our mini-survey so far:
>
> nvidia driver using nvidia's RenderAccel: fine (Hugo, Ron)
> radeon driver with XAA: fine (Bill)

I'm not seeing the IW problems and I'm using the Xorg radeon driver as
well:

$ grep -B1 -A4 'drivers/' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
(II) LoadModule: "radeon"
(II) Loading /usr/lib/xorg/modules/drivers//radeon_drv.so
(II) Module radeon: vendor="X.Org Foundation"
        compiled for 1.4.2, module version = 4.3.0
        Module class: X.Org Video Driver
        ABI class: X.Org Video Driver, version 2.0
$ grep 'XAA' /var/log/Xorg.0.log
(==) RADEON(0): Using XAA acceleration architecture
(II) RADEON(0): Using XFree86 Acceleration Architecture (XAA)
$

I'm also using IW3 on my T23 Thinkpad using the savage driver with no
speed issues.  I believe it also uses XAA.

- Nate >>

--

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[Nate Bargmann-4]

* Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@...> [2008 Jul 20 14:20 -0500]:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 07/20/08 13:01, Nick Lidakis wrote:
> > Ron Johnson wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Most of you will yawn, and think, "there he goes again", but this
> >> why I don't like display managers.
> >
> > Can you elaborate? With a display manager one cannot kill X to make new
> > changes, like the aforementioned libraries, to take effect?
>
> According to Carl's experience, no.  Maybe he did something wrong?

I go into a root console and issue:

# /etc/init.d/kdm stop
# /etc/init.d/kdm start; exit

whenever X libraries, drivers, etc. are updated.  Ctl-e from KDM does
not do a complete kill and restart as near as I can tell.

- Nate >>

--

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possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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[Bill Wohler]

Carl Fink <carlf@...> writes:

> In my case, a reboot was required to load the new versions of about a dozen
> libraries.  (Killing and restarting X did not do it.)  Once I did that,
> weird rendering problems in Gecko went away.  It can't hurt.

You don't have to reboot to restart the X server. You have at least
two easy methods at your disposal to do so:

1. C-A-Backspace (that's Control-Alt-Backspace to non-Emacs folks)

2. /etc/init.d/gdm restart (replace gdm with your display manager)

I perform these after logging out in order to save my session.

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[Carl Fink-6]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 07:30:54AM -0700, Bill Wohler wrote:

> Carl Fink <carlf@...> writes:
>
> > In my case, a reboot was required to load the new versions of about a dozen
> > libraries.  (Killing and restarting X did not do it.)  Once I did that,
> > weird rendering problems in Gecko went away.  It can't hurt.
>
> You don't have to reboot to restart the X server. You have at least
> two easy methods at your disposal to do so:
>
> 1. C-A-Backspace (that's Control-Alt-Backspace to non-Emacs folks)
>
> 2. /etc/init.d/gdm restart (replace gdm with your display manager)

Yes, and when I mentioned "restarting X" what did you think that I meant?
#1 above, in fact.
--
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Stupid mistakes you can correct!


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