Feedback on Sun 24" LCD?

[Steve Hatle]

All,

I've got a chance to pick up one of the first generation Sun 24" LCD panels.

Anyone have any feedback, good or bad, on these monitors. They seem to have
a good set of input options, PIP, etc.

I realize that this is probably not a gamers monitor, but I want a large,
decent desktop display for "everyday" tasks.

Any input appreciated!

Steve
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[Robert Darlington]

Any 10 year old CRT will outperform it.

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Steve Hatle <shatle@...> wrote:

> All,
>
> I've got a chance to pick up one of the first generation Sun 24" LCD panels.
>
> Anyone have any feedback, good or bad, on these monitors. They seem to have
> a good set of input options, PIP, etc.
>
> I realize that this is probably not a gamers monitor, but I want a large,
> decent desktop display for "everyday" tasks.
>
> Any input appreciated!
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[William Enestvedt]

Robert wrote, "Any 10 year old CRT will outperform it."

   And yet, it's still a 24" LCD, so if you just want a big display,
lower power (?), and a smaller form factor, it's fine.

  I have a 24" Sun LCD [is it the same one? Dual inputs?] on the desk of
our budget analyst, connected to an HP laptop. She can display huge
tracts of spreadsheets without constantly scrolling, so simply put her
life is good. Mind you, I wouldn't have given it to someone doing, say,
color-matching or retouching or video work -- which gets back to
Robert's post.

   So Steve, if it fits your needs, go for it.

- Will
P.S. I think the cable in thw back was a little flimsy, so watch out for
it.
--
Will Enestvedt
Providence, RI
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[Joshua Boyd]

On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 12:11:27PM -0600, Robert Darlington wrote:
> Any 10 year old CRT will outperform it.

How many 10 year old CRTs are still bright, crisp, and clear?  And how
many of them support 1920x1200?

I've been having a hard time with CRTs recently.  I recently got a 3
year old Sony 21" tube.  It had color issues, and it was blurry.  I
replaced it with a 5 year old Samsung 19" LCD.  Despite the color
issues, the CRT probably did better with color than the LCD does
(haven't tried putting them side by side), but the CRT was too hard on
my eyes.  
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[Steve Hatle]

Robert,

Please say more... Are you talking about response rate, or something else?

I've seen the 24" CRT monitor. I think I would strain my milk getting it
into the house, not to mention having to reinforce my desk :-)

Steve


On 7/7/08 1:11 PM, "Robert Darlington" <rdarlington@...> wrote:

> Any 10 year old CRT will outperform it.
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Steve Hatle <shatle@...> wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> I've got a chance to pick up one of the first generation Sun 24" LCD panels.
>>
>> Anyone have any feedback, good or bad, on these monitors. They seem to have
>> a good set of input options, PIP, etc.
>>
>> I realize that this is probably not a gamers monitor, but I want a large,
>> decent desktop display for "everyday" tasks.
>>
>> Any input appreciated!
>>
>> Steve
>> _______________________________________________
>> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Dan Sikorski]

Joshua Boyd wrote:

> How many 10 year old CRTs are still bright, crisp, and clear?  And how
> many of them support 1920x1200?
>
> I've been having a hard time with CRTs recently.  I recently got a 3
> year old Sony 21" tube.  It had color issues, and it was blurry.  I
> replaced it with a 5 year old Samsung 19" LCD.  Despite the color
> issues, the CRT probably did better with color than the LCD does
> (haven't tried putting them side by side), but the CRT was too hard on
> my eyes.  
>  

Four of five years ago, over a short period of time I went from looking
at CRT's all day long to not looking at them at all.  (I replaced a CRT
TV with DLP, and CRT computer monitors with LCD.)  A few months later, I
realized that my eyes were no longer tired at the end of the day as they
had always been in the past.  For me it was a big difference, and for
that reason alone, i would sacrifice a little bit of color accuracy for
my everyday tasks (none of which are very sensitive to color accuracy)
to use an LCD instead of a CRT.

    -Dan Sikorski
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[Robert Darlington]

LCD monitors (even modern ones) typically have way better color
saturation than a CRT based monitor.  Outside of that, unless you're
looking at line art or just text, CRTs typically have way better
images for graphics.  Refresh rates are on par, or at least not really
that noticeably different.

I use an LCD monitor now because it fits on my Ergotron roll around
pole cart.  I much prefer my old 21" Trinitron, but it doesn't have a
VESA mount ;)

If you want a great monitor for displaying graphics, don't even think
about buying an LCD, let alone an old one.  If you don't care, go with
whatever makes the most sense for you.   You may not notice the
difference unless you're looking for it, you may not care when you see
the difference.  I personally never found a very good use for all that
room behind LCD monitors people say save space.  I quite often see
them pushed very far back on the desk and people leaning way over to
see them.  It's amazing how people equate something that costs more
money with something that's "better".

Anyway, google around for this subject.  I urge you to learn more
about monitors in general.

-Bob

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Steve Hatle <shatle@...> wrote:

> Robert,
>
> Please say more... Are you talking about response rate, or something else?
>
> I've seen the 24" CRT monitor. I think I would strain my milk getting it
> into the house, not to mention having to reinforce my desk :-)
>
> Steve
>
>
> On 7/7/08 1:11 PM, "Robert Darlington" <rdarlington@...> wrote:
>
>> Any 10 year old CRT will outperform it.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Steve Hatle <shatle@...> wrote:
>>> All,
>>>
>>> I've got a chance to pick up one of the first generation Sun 24" LCD panels.
>>>
>>> Anyone have any feedback, good or bad, on these monitors. They seem to have
>>> a good set of input options, PIP, etc.
>>>
>>> I realize that this is probably not a gamers monitor, but I want a large,
>>> decent desktop display for "everyday" tasks.
>>>
>>> Any input appreciated!
>>>
>>> Steve
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
>> _______________________________________________
>> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

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[Brian Deloria]

21" viewsonic monitors weigh in at around 73lbs, add another 20lbs if it's a
trinitron tube.  I've had good luck with viewsonic professional series of
monitors, I still have some kicking around with 2001 date codes on them.
The big problem with them is the thermal and physical foot print.  One
fellow at $WORK lamented that he was no longer able to heat up his lunch on
his 19" flat panel with a dell in lieu of his 21" on an u60.  The 21" sun
monitors that we still have kicking around (dual input vga/13w3) typically
have a better picture than their replacement 19" sceptre monitors which have
the problem of having blurry spots on the screen.  The ones that are more
than 2 years old also have a habit of crapping out.  As many tube monitors
that are often 2x the age get replace in a year as the crap lcd's.

also if you've ever had to move, or move a 21" monitor up a flight of stairs
it really sucks.

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Steve Hatle <shatle@...> wrote:

> Robert,
>
> Please say more... Are you talking about response rate, or something else?
>
> I've seen the 24" CRT monitor. I think I would strain my milk getting it
> into the house, not to mention having to reinforce my desk :-)
>
> Steve
>
>
> On 7/7/08 1:11 PM, "Robert Darlington" <rdarlington@...> wrote:
>
> > Any 10 year old CRT will outperform it.
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Steve Hatle <shatle@...>
> wrote:
> >> All,
> >>
> >> I've got a chance to pick up one of the first generation Sun 24" LCD
> panels.
> >>
> >> Anyone have any feedback, good or bad, on these monitors. They seem to
> have
> >> a good set of input options, PIP, etc.
> >>
> >> I realize that this is probably not a gamers monitor, but I want a
> large,
> >> decent desktop display for "everyday" tasks.
> >>
> >> Any input appreciated!
> >>
> >> Steve
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
> > _______________________________________________
> > rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

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[Jerry Kemp]

I can't speak to the first generation 24 LCD monitor, but I just
purchased a Sun 24" LCD monitor for myself @ home in May, and it has
been a good monitor for me.

I am not a gamer myself either, so I can't comment on that.

Jerry K


Steve Hatle wrote:

> All,
>
> I've got a chance to pick up one of the first generation Sun 24" LCD panels.
>
> Anyone have any feedback, good or bad, on these monitors. They seem to have
> a good set of input options, PIP, etc.
>
> I realize that this is probably not a gamers monitor, but I want a large,
> decent desktop display for "everyday" tasks.
>
> Any input appreciated!
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

_______________________________________________
rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

[Joshua Boyd]

On Mon, Jul 07, 2008 at 02:27:30PM -0400, Dan Sikorski wrote:

> Four of five years ago, over a short period of time I went from looking
> at CRT's all day long to not looking at them at all.  (I replaced a CRT
> TV with DLP, and CRT computer monitors with LCD.)  A few months later, I
> realized that my eyes were no longer tired at the end of the day as they
> had always been in the past.  For me it was a big difference, and for
> that reason alone, i would sacrifice a little bit of color accuracy for
> my everyday tasks (none of which are very sensitive to color accuracy)
> to use an LCD instead of a CRT.

I haven't been mostly LCDs for as long.

I've been LCD (primarily) at work for about 4 years.  Alas, other than
my notebook, I'm stuck looking at CRTs in too many places.

Last year was when I started going LCD at home.  That made such a big
difference in how much I actually worked at home.
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[Curious George-2]

Hi,

--- On Mon, 7/7/08, William Enestvedt <William.Enestvedt@...> wrote:

> Robert wrote, "Any 10 year old CRT will outperform
> it."
>
>    And yet, it's still a 24" LCD, so if you just
> want a big display lower power (?), and a smaller form
> factor, it's fine.
>
>   I have a 24" Sun LCD [is it the same one? Dual
> inputs?] on the desk of our budget analyst, connected to
> an HP laptop. She can display huge tracts of spreadsheets
> without constantly scrolling, so simply put her
> life is good. Mind you, I wouldn't have given it to
> someone doing, say, color-matching or retouching or
> video work -- which gets back to Robert's post.

I use 21" CRT's almost exclusively.   I need a *lot* of
(virtual) desktop space as I often develop distributed
applications that run on three or more hosts concurrently
(so I have lots of windows peeking at lots of different
things on many different machines -- it's just easier to
be able to see your application *plus* "under the hood"
on the various machines that are contributing to making
it work).  Each of my three primary workstations has
a pair of 21" monitors (like I said, I need a LOT of
desktop space!  :> )

I also do a fair bit of 2D & 3D CAD (winders platform)
that benefits from having nice smooth color gradations
in renders.

I found LCD's hard on my eyes.  It felt like looking through
the branches of a white birch tree after an ice storm (sorry
that reference may not be understood by all; but, for those who
know the visual impression it is dead on!)

My SGI VWS has a widescreen LCD (1600?) that I tolerate due
to it's "fit" with that machine.  But, I currently need another
pair of monitors and hesitate to drag out the 19" LSA800's
even though they *would* give me some much needed desk space

(in reference to another post re: that "extra desk space"...
with age, I find it easier to view the screen when it is a bit
further away -- not really feasible with the monstrous 21"
CRTs!  And, having space between me and the monitor helps
to accomodate the various input devices that I use -- mouse,
tablet and spaceball)

I had a line on a pair of 24" wide-screen Sun CRT's but,
unfortunately, one of them was toast (and since I need them
in *pairs*...  :< )

[BTW, they *are* heavier than lead!]

>    So Steve, if it fits your needs, go for it.

Agreed.  But, make sure you're comparing apples to apples.
I.e., look at display resolution -- not just size.  You don't
want to find yourself staring at 1 inch square pixels!! :>
(OTOH, 1600x1200 on a 17" display is not for those with old eyes!)
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[Carl R. Friend]

    On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Jerry K wrote:

> I can't speak to the first generation 24 LCD monitor, but I just purchased a
> Sun 24" LCD monitor for myself @ home in May, and it has been a good monitor
> for me.

    The main thing you really need to be concerned about in a potential
switch from CRT to LCD technology is whether the LCD can (1) handle all
the scan-rates that you CRT can, (2) whether it can handle all the various
resolutions that CRTs just take in stride (it it can't do 1-to-1 pixel
resolution, run away), and (3) whether it can properly display proper
colour definition.

    $PPOE recently replaced my 21" Sun monitor  with a 24" HP LCD one,
and I actually rather like the result.  Note, however, that I still
have the CRT on my floor because the HP unit cannot (1) do the oddball
Sun resolutions and (2) is *very* heavy on reds making colour-balancing
darn near impossible.

> I am not a gamer myself either, so I can't comment on that.

    I play Unreal Tournament on occasion at work, and the HP unit works
well for that.  But then again, I'm not all that demanding of it.

    At home, however, at least until I'm out of collecting once and
for all, I'm wedded to CRTs, and have built up a small cache of them.
Nothing else will work well with some of the truly oddball resolutions
that some of the earlier proprietary workstations pump out.

    Cheers!

+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
| Carl Richard Friend (UNIX Sysadmin)            | West Boylston       |
| Minicomputer Collector / Enthusiast            | Massachusetts, USA  |
| mailto:crfriend@...                        +---------------------+
| http://users.rcn.com/crfriend/museum           | ICBM: 42:22N 71:47W |
+------------------------------------------------+---------------------+
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[Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.]

Brian Deloria wrote:
> 21" viewsonic monitors weigh in at around 73lbs, add another 20lbs if it's a
> trinitron tube.  I've had good luck with viewsonic professional series of
> monitors, I still have some kicking around with 2001 date codes on them.
> The big problem with them is the thermal and physical foot print.  One
> fellow at $WORK lamented that he was no longer able to heat up his lunch on
> his 19" flat panel with a dell in lieu of his 21" on an u60.  The 21" sun
> monitors that we still have kicking around (dual input vga/13w3) typically
> have a better picture than their replacement 19" sceptre monitors which have
>  

Is that the Sun 21" true flat or the 21" 'half' flat (flat vertically,
curved horizontally).

I have one of each... and the true flat had an issue recently where it
made a noise
and the screen went fuzzy, it self corrected, did it again, self
corrected, then did it
again, and wasn't correcting... so I turned it off and back on and it
corrected.

Then I think it did it one more time.  It hasn't done it since, and the
monitor is
crisp.. only thing is on the dark blue/purplish background when waking
it up,
I see some fine red lines running 30 degree 'uphill' from left to right
on the
background... but then the windows (mostly white) refresh, and then if I
switch
to an empty desktop I don't see it... so unsure what it is.

Are these notorious for failing ?  Should I be planning a retirement
party for it ?
(I surely wouldn't mind saving the power, but it is a damn nice CRT, so
I'd hate
to lose it).

-- Curt

> the problem of having blurry spots on the screen.  The ones that are more
> than 2 years old also have a habit of crapping out.  As many tube monitors
> that are often 2x the age get replace in a year as the crap lcd's.
>
> also if you've ever had to move, or move a 21" monitor up a flight of stairs
> it really sucks.
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Steve Hatle <shatle@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> Robert,
>>
>> Please say more... Are you talking about response rate, or something else?
>>
>> I've seen the 24" CRT monitor. I think I would strain my milk getting it
>> into the house, not to mention having to reinforce my desk :-)
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> On 7/7/08 1:11 PM, "Robert Darlington" <rdarlington@...> wrote:
>>
>>    
>>> Any 10 year old CRT will outperform it.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 11:59 AM, Steve Hatle <shatle@...>
>>>      
>> wrote:
>>    
>>>> All,
>>>>
>>>> I've got a chance to pick up one of the first generation Sun 24" LCD
>>>>        
>> panels.
>>    
>>>> Anyone have any feedback, good or bad, on these monitors. They seem to
>>>>        
>> have
>>    
>>>> a good set of input options, PIP, etc.
>>>>
>>>> I realize that this is probably not a gamers monitor, but I want a
>>>>        
>> large,
>>    
>>>> decent desktop display for "everyday" tasks.
>>>>
>>>> Any input appreciated!
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
>>>>        
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
>>>      
>> _______________________________________________
>> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue
>>    
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

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[Robert Darlington]

Hey, my NeXT color monitor does something similar.  It ticks or
something, the picture jumps a little bit, and then it's fine again
for a couple of minutes.   My guess is something is arcing over, but
don't know enough about how these things are built to know for sure.
Any ideas?   Also, is anybody getting rid of a good color NeXT monitor
near New Mexico by chance? (can't hurt to ask!)

Thanks,
Bob

> I have one of each... and the true flat had an issue recently where it made
> a noise
> and the screen went fuzzy, it self corrected, did it again, self corrected,
> then did it
> again, and wasn't correcting... so I turned it off and back on and it
> corrected.
>
> Then I think it did it one more time.  It hasn't done it since, and the
> monitor is
> crisp.. only thing is on the dark blue/purplish background when waking it
> up,
> I see some fine red lines running 30 degree 'uphill' from left to right on
> the
> background... but then the windows (mostly white) refresh, and then if I
> switch
> to an empty desktop I don't see it... so unsure what it is.
>
> Are these notorious for failing ?  Should I be planning a retirement party
> for it ?
> (I surely wouldn't mind saving the power, but it is a damn nice CRT, so I'd
> hate
> to lose it).
>
> -- Curt

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[Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.]

Robert Darlington wrote:
> Hey, my NeXT color monitor does something similar.  It ticks or
> something, the picture jumps a little bit, and then it's fine again
> for a couple of minutes.   My guess is something is arcing over, but
> don't know enough about how these things are built to know for sure.
> Any ideas?   Also, is anybody getting rid of a good color NeXT monitor
> near New Mexico by chance? (can't hurt to ask!)
>
>  

Mine gets very fuzzy...  doesn't jump at all... don't quite get it... as
if it was
HV, I'd expect a change in size or more noise.... it was downright weird....

At a minimum something went awry with the focus voltage to the CRT I'd
imagine...  (but how that could make noise I don't know unless hv was
leaking
to the focus ! (ouch)).

-- Curt

> Thanks,
> Bob
>
>  
>> I have one of each... and the true flat had an issue recently where it made
>> a noise
>> and the screen went fuzzy, it self corrected, did it again, self corrected,
>> then did it
>> again, and wasn't correcting... so I turned it off and back on and it
>> corrected.
>>
>> Then I think it did it one more time.  It hasn't done it since, and the
>> monitor is
>> crisp.. only thing is on the dark blue/purplish background when waking it
>> up,
>> I see some fine red lines running 30 degree 'uphill' from left to right on
>> the
>> background... but then the windows (mostly white) refresh, and then if I
>> switch
>> to an empty desktop I don't see it... so unsure what it is.
>>
>> Are these notorious for failing ?  Should I be planning a retirement party
>> for it ?
>> (I surely wouldn't mind saving the power, but it is a damn nice CRT, so I'd
>> hate
>> to lose it).
>>
>> -- Curt
>>    
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

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[Mike Loewen]

On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Robert Darlington wrote:

> Hey, my NeXT color monitor does something similar.  It ticks or
> something, the picture jumps a little bit, and then it's fine again
> for a couple of minutes.   My guess is something is arcing over, but
> don't know enough about how these things are built to know for sure.
> Any ideas?

    We used to see that on the 19" round CRTs on the Air Force AN/FYQ-93
system.  As I recall, it was a static buildup on the protective glass
plate in front of the CRT.  The plate was supposed to be grounded by a
wire, but if the wire broke it would periodically discharge as you
described.


Mike Loewen mloewen@...
The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
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[Robert Darlington]

I bet that's the problem I'm having (and sorry to hijack the thread).
Next time I dig the thing out of storage I'll fix up the tube
grounding system and check for loose things.  I design tube based
amplifiers for industrial applications so I'm used to working around
HV.

Thanks,
Bob

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Mike Loewen <mloewen@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Robert Darlington wrote:
>
>> Hey, my NeXT color monitor does something similar.  It ticks or
>> something, the picture jumps a little bit, and then it's fine again
>> for a couple of minutes.   My guess is something is arcing over, but
>> don't know enough about how these things are built to know for sure.
>> Any ideas?
>
>   We used to see that on the 19" round CRTs on the Air Force AN/FYQ-93
> system.  As I recall, it was a static buildup on the protective glass plate
> in front of the CRT.  The plate was supposed to be grounded by a wire, but
> if the wire broke it would periodically discharge as you described.
>
>
> Mike Loewen                             mloewen@...
> The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014
>  http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/
> Old Technology  http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

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[wa2egp]

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Robert Darlington" <rdarlington@...>

>
> Hey, my NeXT color monitor does something similar.  It ticks or
> something, the picture jumps a little bit, and then it's fine again
> for a couple of minutes.   My guess is something is arcing over, but
> don't know enough about how these things are built to know for sure.
> Any ideas?   Also, is anybody getting rid of a good color NeXT monitor
> near New Mexico by chance? (can't hurt to ask!)
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>
> > I have one of each... and the true flat had an issue recently where it made
> > a noise
> > and the screen went fuzzy, it self corrected, did it again, self corrected,
> > then did it
> > again, and wasn't correcting... so I turned it off and back on and it
> > corrected.
> >
> > Then I think it did it one more time.  It hasn't done it since, and the
> > monitor is
> > crisp.. only thing is on the dark blue/purplish background when waking it
> > up,
> > I see some fine red lines running 30 degree 'uphill' from left to right on
> > the
> > background... but then the windows (mostly white) refresh, and then if I
> > switch
> > to an empty desktop I don't see it... so unsure what it is.
> >
> > Are these notorious for failing ?  Should I be planning a retirement party
> > for it ?
> > (I surely wouldn't mind saving the power, but it is a damn nice CRT, so I'd
> > hate
> > to lose it).
> >
> > -- Curt

If you guys are into soldering try resoldering the board connections around the HV supply.  I had a monitor that was notorious for having cold solder joints where the flyback transformer was on the board.  Same problem.  A little resoldering, haven't had a problem in years.

Bob
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[Brian Deloria]

> Is that the Sun 21" true flat or the 21" 'half' flat (flat vertically,
>> curved horizontally).
>>
>> I have one of each... and the true flat had an issue recently where it
>> made a noise
>> and the screen went fuzzy, it self corrected, did it again, self
>> corrected, then did it
>> again, and wasn't correcting... so I turned it off and back on and it
>> corrected.
>>
>> Then I think it did it one more time.  It hasn't done it since, and the
>> m