Evolution: Taking forward...

[Srinivasa Ragavan]

Hello guys,

We have had a set of problems that we are carrying around for some time like :

      * Copyright assignments, which is not the best way looking for the future of Evolution. It sucks and sort of limits contributions to Evolution and we wanted to drop it.
      * The current licensing incompatibility issues of Evolution with Samba4/libmapi (GPLv3). Evolution needs to link with libmapi/samba4 for the new mapi based connector being developed for Exchange 2007.
 
So here is the plan :

      * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it really easy to contribute to Evolution
      * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use the code more easily around the platform.  This also moves us closer to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.

We think this is good for Evolution and (of course) we continue to invest in Evolution. We are also working to ensure we have the rights to re-license all of the code. We will do the licensing/header changes as we audit the code ownership situation.

It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit mail with permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you think you wrote a piece of Evolution code & object.

We are really excited about this and we feel this would really help Evolution a lot. We need your support now for making this change and to take Evolution to great heights.

Thanks for your contributions and support.

-Srini.
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[Paul Bolle]

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 04:21 -0600, Srinivasa Ragavan wrote:
> * The current licensing incompatibility issues of Evolution with
> Samba4/libmapi (GPLv3). Evolution needs to link with libmapi/samba4
> for the new mapi based connector being developed for Exchange 2007.

[...]
 
> * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use
> the code more easily around the platform.

Did you mean LGPLv2 _or_ LGPLv3 here?

Anyway, I am not familiar with libmapi, but it does indeed seem to be
(what is commonly referred to as) a library that is licensed under the
GPLv3. According to the FSF you can't release a project under the LGPLv2
or LGPLv3 if you want to use a library under GPLv3. You'll have to
convert your LGPLv2 or LGPLv3 code to the GPLv3 [1]. So, if I'm reading
your plan and the FSF GPL faq correctly, your plan wouldn't work (as far
as libmapi is concerned).

Am I reading your plan and the faq correctly?

Regards,


Paul Bolle

[1] http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#AllCompatibility

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[Paul Smith-5]

> * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use
> the code more easily around the platform.

I'm a little concerned with this plan in conjunction with the "getting
rid of copyright assignment" plan.

Once you start accepting a significant amount of code without copyright
assignment, it will be difficult to the point of impossibility to change
the license again.

We can only assume that the FSF will, in the future, come out with a
GPLv4 and that this license will have its own set of incompatibilities
with the existing GPLv2 and GPLv3 licenses (ditto for LGPL of course).

So, if you change the license to "LGPLv2 or LGPLv3", then you'll be
right back where you are now when LGPLv4 is released, AND you won't have
the right copyright controls you do now that allow you to resolve the
problem.


IMO, if a software project is going to accept code without assignment
then they really should be using the "LGPLvX or later" license
structure, rather than providing a list of acceptable licenses.  Either
that, or resign yourself to FOREVER using ONLY the licenses you've
listed, come what may--dangerous IMO!

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[Patrick Ohly]

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 04:21 -0600, Srinivasa Ragavan wrote:
> We have had a set of problems that we are carrying around for some
> time like :
>
>       * Copyright assignments, which is not the best way looking for
> the future of Evolution. It sucks and sort of limits contributions to
> Evolution and we wanted to drop it.

I agree with Paul S. that this can become problematic during later
license changes. I suggest to either got for a "LGPL 2.1 or later"
license (thus basically choosing GNU licenses forever) or changing the
copyright agreement so that the copyright is transferred to some
independent, non-profit organization instead of Novell. The GNU
foundation perhaps?

>       * The current licensing incompatibility issues of Evolution with
> Samba4/libmapi (GPLv3). Evolution needs to link with libmapi/samba4
> for the new mapi based connector being developed for Exchange 2007.
>  
> So here is the plan :
>
>       * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it really easy
> to contribute to Evolution
>       * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us
> re-use the code more easily around the platform.  This also moves us
> closer to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.

This should be "LGPL v2.1 or later or GPL v3 or later". As long as the
code is not linked against libmapi (which is GPL3 as Paul B. pointed
out), the resulting binary can be released as LGPL. Code can be moved
from main Evolution into libs and vice versa, which wouldn't be the case
if the code of the executable is only licensed under the GPL.

As soon as source is compiled into an executable which is also linked
against libmapi, then the resulting work and its source has to be
distributed under GPL3. The license of the Evolution source allows that,
so you are fine. The shared libraries can remain under LGPL: GPL
binaries can use LGPL libraries.

> It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit mail with
> permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you think you wrote a
> piece of Evolution code & object.

I haven't contributed much code and when I did, it was with copyright
transfer. So no objections from my side.

--
Bye, Patrick Ohly
--  
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http://www.estamos.de/

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[Michael Meeks-2]

Hi Paul,

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 15:30 +0200, Paul Bolle wrote:
> > * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use
> > the code more easily around the platform.
>
> Did you mean LGPLv2 _or_ LGPLv3 here?

        Yes; it's dual licensed - which gives people rather a choice of
licenses, GPLv2, GPLv3, LGPLv2, LGPLv3 etc.

> Anyway, I am not familiar with libmapi, but it does indeed seem to be
> (what is commonly referred to as) a library that is licensed under the
> GPLv3. According to the FSF you can't release a project under the LGPLv2
> or LGPLv3 if you want to use a library under GPLv3. You'll have to
> convert your LGPLv2 or LGPLv3 code to the GPLv3 [1].

        Sure - so, IANAL etc. however I don't see a problem with a LGPLv3 /
GPLv3 for the samba piece - I imagine, linking that in as a plugin makes
Evo, with the current structure as a whole GPLv3; but without it
potentially LGPLv2/GPLv2/LGPLv3 :-) AFAICS that gives some flexibility;
but of course it's possible there are yet further un-anticipated
problems ? :-) In the longer term, I'd prefer to see the samba piece
isolated into a separate process.

        HTH,

                Michael.

--
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[Michael Meeks-2]

Hi Paul,

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 12:46 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
> Once you start accepting a significant amount of code without copyright
> assignment, it will be difficult to the point of impossibility to change
> the license again.

        Yes. Hence (in part) the choice of a more liberal / lesser license:
that hopefully provides some safeguards here against future changes.

> We can only assume that the FSF will, in the future, come out with a
> GPLv4 and that this license will have its own set of incompatibilities
> with the existing GPLv2 and GPLv3 licenses (ditto for LGPL of course).

        Sure; but it seems unlikely that the LGPLv4 will be incompatible with
the LGPLv3 or v2 - the 'lesser' nature of course allow even proprietary
software to be linked to these.

> IMO, if a software project is going to accept code without assignment
> then they really should be using the "LGPLvX or later" license
> structure, rather than providing a list of acceptable licenses.

        Sure - but there are real problems persuading lawyers to license code
under a license that doesn't yet exist & that they havn't read :-)

        HTH,

                Michael.

--
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[Andrew Cowie]

On Sat, 2008-07-12 at 00:14 +0100, Michael Meeks wrote:
> Sure - but there are real problems persuading lawyers

... and developers ...

>  to license code
> under a license that doesn't yet exist & that they havn't read :-)

AfC
Sydney

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[Felipe Contreras]

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Patrick Ohly <Patrick.Ohly@...> wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 04:21 -0600, Srinivasa Ragavan wrote:

</snip>

>>       * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it really easy
>> to contribute to Evolution
>>       * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us
>> re-use the code more easily around the platform.  This also moves us
>> closer to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.
>
> This should be "LGPL v2.1 or later or GPL v3 or later". As long as the
> code is not linked against libmapi (which is GPL3 as Paul B. pointed
> out), the resulting binary can be released as LGPL. Code can be moved
> from main Evolution into libs and vice versa, which wouldn't be the case
> if the code of the executable is only licensed under the GPL.
>
> As soon as source is compiled into an executable which is also linked
> against libmapi, then the resulting work and its source has to be
> distributed under GPL3. The license of the Evolution source allows that,
> so you are fine. The shared libraries can remain under LGPL: GPL
> binaries can use LGPL libraries.

Could you consider talking with the samba guys to make libmapi LGPLv3?
That would make things much easier, right?

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[Michael Meeks-2]

On Sat, 2008-07-12 at 13:56 +0300, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> Could you consider talking with the samba guys to make libmapi LGPLv3?
> That would make things much easier, right?

        Yep - would make life easier; OTOH I've spoken to them in the past
along these lines - but though they were initially interested some years
ago, sadly I think they are less interested today.

        OTOH - it's always worth asking again I guess.

        HTH,

                Michael.

--
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[Jeffrey Stedfast]

I just wanted to chime in and say AWESOME!!! :-)

It is my hope that now that Evolution no longer requires assignment,
that we'll see more developers get involved with improving it - who
knows, maybe someone will even contribute an uber IMAP
implementation? :-)

Jeff (retired Evolution hacker)

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 04:21 -0600, Srinivasa Ragavan wrote:

> Hello guys,
>
> We have had a set of problems that we are carrying around for some time like :
>
>       * Copyright assignments, which is not the best way looking for the future of Evolution. It sucks and sort of limits contributions to Evolution and we wanted to drop it.
>       * The current licensing incompatibility issues of Evolution with Samba4/libmapi (GPLv3). Evolution needs to link with libmapi/samba4 for the new mapi based connector being developed for Exchange 2007.
>  
> So here is the plan :
>
>       * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it really easy to contribute to Evolution
>       * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use the code more easily around the platform.  This also moves us closer to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.
>
> We think this is good for Evolution and (of course) we continue to invest in Evolution. We are also working to ensure we have the rights to re-license all of the code. We will do the licensing/header changes as we audit the code ownership situation.
>
> It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit mail with permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you think you wrote a piece of Evolution code & object.
>
> We are really excited about this and we feel this would really help Evolution a lot. We need your support now for making this change and to take Evolution to great heights.
>
> Thanks for your contributions and support.
>
> -Srini.
> _______________________________________________
> Evolution-hackers mailing list
> Evolution-hackers@...
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-hackers

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[Kjartan Maraas]

fr., 11.07.2008 kl. 04.21 -0600, skrev Srinivasa Ragavan:

> Hello guys,
>
> We have had a set of problems that we are carrying around for some time like :
>
>       * Copyright assignments, which is not the best way looking for the future of Evolution. It sucks and sort of limits contributions to Evolution and we wanted to drop it.
>       * The current licensing incompatibility issues of Evolution with Samba4/libmapi (GPLv3). Evolution needs to link with libmapi/samba4 for the new mapi based connector being developed for Exchange 2007.
>  
> So here is the plan :
>
>       * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it really easy to contribute to Evolution
>       * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use the code more easily around the platform.  This also moves us closer to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.
>
> We think this is good for Evolution and (of course) we continue to invest in Evolution. We are also working to ensure we have the rights to re-license all of the code. We will do the licensing/header changes as we audit the code ownership situation.
>
> It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit mail with permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you think you wrote a piece of Evolution code & object.
>

I didn't think my contributions were substantial enough to warrant this
but Michael poked me about it so here you go. Permission granted for any
pieces of code I've produced.

Cheers
Kjartan


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[Gilles Dartiguelongue-4]

Le samedi 16 août 2008 à 12:12 +0200, Kjartan Maraas a écrit :>
> I didn't think my contributions were substantial enough to warrant this
> but Michael poked me about it so here you go. Permission granted for any
> pieces of code I've produced.

Sankar got me on irc but I forgot to send a mail so here it is.
Permission granted for any pieces of code I've produced.

--
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[Andre Klapper]

After getting explicitly asked for this:
Permission granted for any pieces of code I've produced.

andre klapper

Am Freitag, den 11.07.2008, 04:21 -0600 schrieb Srinivasa Ragavan:

> We have had a set of problems that we are carrying around for some time like :
>
>       * Copyright assignments, which is not the best way looking for the future of Evolution. It sucks and sort of limits contributions to Evolution and we wanted to drop it.
>       * The current licensing incompatibility issues of Evolution with Samba4/libmapi (GPLv3). Evolution needs to link with libmapi/samba4 for the new mapi based connector being developed for Exchange 2007.
>  
> So here is the plan :
>
>       * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it really easy to contribute to Evolution
>       * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use the code more easily around the platform.  This also moves us closer to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.
>
> We think this is good for Evolution and (of course) we continue to invest in Evolution. We are also working to ensure we have the rights to re-license all of the code. We will do the licensing/header changes as we audit the code ownership situation.
>
> It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit mail with permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you think you wrote a piece of Evolution code & object.
>
> We are really excited about this and we feel this would really help Evolution a lot. We need your support now for making this change and to take Evolution to great heights.
>
> Thanks for your contributions and support.

--
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[Lucian Langa-2]

I was kindly asked for this:

Permission granted for any pieces of code I've produced.

Lucian Langa.

>        
>         We have had a set of problems that we are carrying around for
>         some time like :
>        
>               * Copyright assignments, which is not the best way
>         looking for the future of Evolution. It sucks and sort of
>         limits contributions to Evolution and we wanted to drop it.
>               * The current licensing incompatibility issues of
>         Evolution with Samba4/libmapi (GPLv3). Evolution needs to link
>         with libmapi/samba4 for the new mapi based connector being
>         developed for Exchange 2007.
>          
>         So here is the plan :
>        
>               * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it
>         really easy to contribute to Evolution
>               * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to
>         let us re-use the code more easily around the platform.  This
>         also moves us closer to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.
>        
>         We think this is good for Evolution and (of course) we
>         continue to invest in Evolution. We are also working to ensure
>         we have the rights to re-license all of the code. We will do
>         the licensing/header changes as we audit the code ownership
>         situation.
>        
>         It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit
>         mail with permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you
>         think you wrote a piece of Evolution code & object.
>        
>         We are really excited about this and we feel this would really
>         help Evolution a lot. We need your support now for making this
>         change and to take Evolution to great heights.
>        
>         Thanks for your contributions and support.

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[Jiri Lebl]

Hello,

Apparently I've been told that I have some code in evolution, despite having
no memory of it.  Anyway, since I assume you guys know better than I do, I
guess I do.

So in that case, feel free to relicense any of my code as outlined below.

George


Srinivasa Ragavan wrote:

> Hello guys,
>
> We have had a set of problems that we are carrying around for some time like :
>
>       * Copyright assignments, which is not the best way looking for the future of Evolution. It sucks and sort of limits contributions to Evolution and we wanted to drop it.
>       * The current licensing incompatibility issues of Evolution with Samba4/libmapi (GPLv3). Evolution needs to link with libmapi/samba4 for the new mapi based connector being developed for Exchange 2007.
>  
> So here is the plan :
>
>       * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it really easy to contribute to Evolution
>       * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use the code more easily around the platform.  This also moves us closer to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.
>
> We think this is good for Evolution and (of course) we continue to invest in Evolution. We are also working to ensure we have the rights to re-license all of the code. We will do the licensing/header changes as we audit the code ownership situation.
>
> It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit mail with permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you think you wrote a piece of Evolution code & object.
>
> We are really excited about this and we feel this would really help Evolution a lot. We need your support now for making this change and to take Evolution to great heights.
>
> Thanks for your contributions and support.
>
> -Srini.
> _______________________________________________
> desktop-devel-list mailing list
> desktop-devel-list@...
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list

--
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    If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.
                        -- Voltaire
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[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 11 juillet 2008 à 04:21 -0600, Srinivasa Ragavan a écrit :

> Hello guys,
>
> We have had a set of problems that we are carrying around for some time like :
>
>       * Copyright assignments, which is not the best way looking for the future of Evolution. It sucks and sort of limits contributions to Evolution and we wanted to drop it.
>       * The current licensing incompatibility issues of Evolution with Samba4/libmapi (GPLv3). Evolution needs to link with libmapi/samba4 for the new mapi based connector being developed for Exchange 2007.
>  
> So here is the plan :
>
>       * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it really easy to contribute to Evolution
>       * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use the code more easily around the platform.  This also moves us closer to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.
>
> We think this is good for Evolution and (of course) we continue to invest in Evolution. We are also working to ensure we have the rights to re-license all of the code. We will do the licensing/header changes as we audit the code ownership situation.
>
> It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit mail with permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you think you wrote a piece of Evolution code & object.

I give permission to relicense code written by me (Frederic Crozat) or
any Mandriva / MandrakeSoft / Conectiva / Edge-IT / Linbox employee
(done during their working time, ie submitted with a "pro" email
address) to "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3".

--
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Mandriva

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[Karsten Bräckelmann-2]

And another one, who's been poked about this mail. Sorry, kind of missed
it, despite discussing this at GUADEC.


On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 04:21 -0600, Srinivasa Ragavan wrote:
> * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it really easy to
> contribute to Evolution
> * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use
> the code more easily around the platform.  This also moves us closer
> to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.

Permission granted for any pieces of code I've produced.

  guenther


--
char *t="\10pse\0r\0dtu\0.@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4";
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;i<l;i++){ i%8? c<<=1:
(c=*++x); c&128 && (s+=h); if (!(h>>=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}

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[Iain *]

On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Srinivasa Ragavan <sragavan@...> wrote:

> Hello guys,
>
> We have had a set of problems that we are carrying around for some time like :
>
>      * Copyright assignments, which is not the best way looking for the future of Evolution. It sucks and sort of limits contributions to Evolution and we wanted to drop it.
>      * The current licensing incompatibility issues of Evolution with Samba4/libmapi (GPLv3). Evolution needs to link with libmapi/samba4 for the new mapi based connector being developed for Exchange 2007.
>
> So here is the plan :
>
>      * Drop Evolution copyright assignments and make it really easy to contribute to Evolution
>      * Move Evolution licensing to  "LGPL v2 and LGPL v3" to let us re-use the code more easily around the platform.  This also moves us closer to Thunderbird's MPL/LGPL model.
>
> We think this is good for Evolution and (of course) we continue to invest in Evolution. We are also working to ensure we have the rights to re-license all of the code. We will do the licensing/header changes as we audit the code ownership situation.
>
> It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit mail with permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you think you wrote a piece of Evolution code & object.

I have no problems with this license change on the code I wrote (under
the ih@... email address).

iain
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[Ross Burton]

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 04:21 -0600, Srinivasa Ragavan wrote:
> It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit mail with
> permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you think you wrote a
> piece of Evolution code & object.

Permission granted for any code I've produced.

Ross
--
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[Ross Burton]

On Mon, 2008-09-15 at 12:35 +0100, Ross Burton wrote:
> On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 04:21 -0600, Srinivasa Ragavan wrote:
> > It would be really helpful if you can post a public/explicit mail with
> > permissions to do it, or code pointers - if you think you wrote a
> > piece of Evolution code & object.
>
> Permission granted for any code I've produced.

(note that this is code I've personally produced.  Things like the DBus
port are LGPL2 at present and we'll have to work this out shortly)

Ross
--
Ross Burton                                 mail: ross@...
                                          jabber: ross@...
                                           www: http://burtonini.com


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