Euler Project Problems.

[Ray St. Marie]

I've finished the first Project Euler Problem using colorForth2.0a.

http://projecteuler.net/

Fast aint the word. I havn't added a timer but I'm using a 2.8gHz P4
and the time to print the answer to screen is imperceptable.

I'm fairly certain that I won't be able to do all 200 or so problems
without research or help.

Ray

--
Raymond St. Marie ii,
colorforthray.info

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[Ray St. Marie]

2 down 190 to go.

Ray

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...> wrote:

> I've finished the first Project Euler Problem using colorForth2.0a.
>
> http://projecteuler.net/
>
> Fast aint the word. I havn't added a timer but I'm using a 2.8gHz P4
> and the time to print the answer to screen is imperceptable.
>
> I'm fairly certain that I won't be able to do all 200 or so problems
> without research or help.
>
> Ray
>
> --
> Raymond St. Marie ii,
> colorforthray.info
>

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Raymond St. Marie ii,
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[Albert van der Horst]

On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 09:59:18AM -0600, Ray St. Marie wrote:
> I've finished the first Project Euler Problem using colorForth2.0a.
>
> http://projecteuler.net/
>
> Fast aint the word. I havn't added a timer but I'm using a 2.8gHz P4
> and the time to print the answer to screen is imperceptable.
>
> I'm fairly certain that I won't be able to do all 200 or so problems
> without research or help.

I sorted the problems by difficulty, and I'm up to the math, mostly.
But the hardest problem is 177, and I see no way to handle it without
floating point. Even then it is ugly to decide that a number is an
exact integer because it is fp within 10-9 of an integer.

I have solved 5 now. In fact 6 because I have written a sudoku
solver. Just have to run the 50 problems through it.

>
> Ray
>
> --
> Raymond St. Marie ii,
> colorforthray.info
>
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>

--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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[Ray St. Marie]

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Albert van der Horst
<albert@...> wrote:

> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 09:59:18AM -0600, Ray St. Marie wrote:
>> I've finished the first Project Euler Problem using colorForth2.0a.
>>
>> http://projecteuler.net/
>>
>> I'm fairly certain that I won't be able to do all 200 or so problems
>> without research or help.
>
> I sorted the problems by difficulty, and I'm up to the math, mostly.
> But the hardest problem is 177, and I see no way to handle it without
> floating point. Even then it is ugly to decide that a number is an
> exact integer because it is fp within 10-9 of an integer.
>
> I have solved 5 now. In fact 6 because I have written a sudoku
> solver. Just have to run the 50 problems through it.
>
>>
>> Ray
>>
>> --
>> Raymond St. Marie ii,
>> colorforthray.info

Is this to say that the floating point registers of the pentium are
out of reach to us? Just wondering, because I really don't know.

Ray

>
> --
> Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
> Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
> albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst



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[Ray St. Marie]

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...> wrote:
> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Albert van der Horst
> <albert@...> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 09:59:18AM -0600, Ray St. Marie wrote:

>>>
>>> http://projecteuler.net/
>>>
>>> I'm fairly certain that I won't be able to do all 200 or so problems
>>> without research or help.
>>
>> I sorted the problems by difficulty, and I'm up to the math, mostly.

lol, I'm not up to the math, I can promise you. But that ain't gonna
stop me! :-) Never has, never will.

Good luck Albert!
I suppose you are not going in order then, being that you are looking
at them by difficulty. I suppose the trick is to find the hardest
problem you can possibly do with out much help, do all of the ones
before that one cuz they will be quick, then the rest, hoping what you
learned from the ones you did know how to do the ones you don't.

Ray

>
>>
>> --
>> Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
>> Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
>> albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst



--
Raymond St. Marie ii,
colorforthray.info

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[Ray St. Marie]

I've spent a day trying to figure out how I will implement larger then
32 bit ( 27 really) numbers in colorforth for Project Euler Problem 3.

Find the Greatest Prime Factor of 600851475143.

One of the things I've learn include a "divide and conquer" algorithm
where the large number is split up into smaller chunks and then
manipulated in scale and then re-combined.

Also, I've been searching through the Pentium Manuals to see if there
is integer functions in some of the larger registers on board.

I'm curious as to how some of you more educated programmers would
proceed... If you would care to elaborate your opinions, please?

I don't have a software guru that helps me with programming and so I
would really like to hear from someone with more experience.

TIA
Ray

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:52 PM, Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...> wrote:

> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Albert van der Horst
>> <albert@...> wrote:
>>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 09:59:18AM -0600, Ray St. Marie wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> http://projecteuler.net/
>>>>
>>>> I'm fairly certain that I won't be able to do all 200 or so problems
>>>> without research or help.
>>>
>>> I sorted the problems by difficulty, and I'm up to the math, mostly.
>
> lol, I'm not up to the math, I can promise you. But that ain't gonna
> stop me! :-) Never has, never will.
>
> Good luck Albert!
> I suppose you are not going in order then, being that you are looking
> at them by difficulty. I suppose the trick is to find the hardest
> problem you can possibly do with out much help, do all of the ones
> before that one cuz they will be quick, then the rest, hoping what you
> learned from the ones you did know how to do the ones you don't.
>
> Ray
>
>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
>>> Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
>>> albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
>
>
>
> --
> Raymond St. Marie ii,
> colorforthray.info
>

--
Raymond St. Marie ii,
colorforthray.info

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[vaded]

Does anyone know which company is manufacturing the SEAForth processors?
Any information would be greatly appreciated.

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[Gwenhwyfaer]

On 09/05/2008, Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...> wrote:
> I've spent a day trying to figure out how I will implement larger then
>  32 bit ( 27 really) numbers in colorforth for Project Euler Problem 3.
>
>  Find the Greatest Prime Factor of 600851475143.

That number looks as though it'd fit into a long float without any
loss of precision. So I'd say it's probably worth adding some words to
do basic floating point maths. Fortunately for colorForth, the x86 FPU
is organised around an 8-deep stack, and its 80 bits of precision can
hold 64-bit integers without precision loss; so I'd say the colorForth
way would be to write a set of macros akin to +, @, ! et al, which
basically compile down to single instructions. Then all you need are
words to get things into and out of the stack. (You might even want to
take advantage of the FILD and FIST instructions, which load integers
of various lengths directly to the FPU stack.)

Of course, if you wanted to dwell in the realm of bigints, you'd need
to look into multiple precision arithmetic, which... is always fun :)
But the number given < 2^40 (and you don't need signed arithmetic), so
you only need 40 bits anyway - well within the FPU's capability.

Just some thoughts... good luck!

Regards
Gwenhwyfaer

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[Ray St. Marie]

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 9:21 PM, Gwenhwyfaer <gwenhwyfaer@...> wrote:

> On 09/05/2008, Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...> wrote:
>> I've spent a day trying to figure out how I will implement larger then
>>  32 bit ( 27 really) numbers in colorforth for Project Euler Problem 3.
>>
>>  Find the Greatest Prime Factor of 600851475143.
>
> That number looks as though it'd fit into a long float without any
> loss of precision. So I'd say it's probably worth adding some words to
> do basic floating point maths. Fortunately for colorForth, the x86 FPU
> is organised around an 8-deep stack, and its 80 bits of precision can
> hold 64-bit integers without precision loss; so I'd say the colorForth
> way would be to write a set of macros akin to +, @, ! et al, which
> basically compile down to single instructions. Then all you need are
> words to get things into and out of the stack. (You might even want to
> take advantage of the FILD and FIST instructions, which load integers
> of various lengths directly to the FPU stack.)
>
> Of course, if you wanted to dwell in the realm of bigints, you'd need
> to look into multiple precision arithmetic, which... is always fun :)
> But the number given < 2^40 (and you don't need signed arithmetic), so
> you only need 40 bits anyway - well within the FPU's capability.
>
> Just some thoughts... good luck!
>
> Regards
> Gwenhwyfaer
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>

Great advice! Thank you.

I've learned about BIGNUMs in forth. Also assembler. I've seen the
Double extention wordset written by Neal Bridges for Retroforth ANS
compatabilitymodule.

I've learned about "Divide and conquer". I think I can get chuckBot to
play that one out in the display while you watch him manipulate the
registers. ( Can't wait that long? Remove the interval word from his
processes and everything he does on the screen is instantaineous. --
lol ) .

Marcel Hendrix's BIGNUM.frt is a great read. Thank You,  Josh Grahm
for the link.

http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/bignum.frt

Lots to know in the world of multi-precision that I had not appreciated before.

I do want to try the FPU, and I think that it will be best for
multiplication and division but, I also want to do a simple bignum
algorithm for addition when the other two operations are not
necessary. This should make me at least a bit more conversant with the
idea.

I learned from the first two prob's that colorforth is cool for
collecting all of the macros and other words through-out the system
using the 'k' copy key. For instance, your proggy uses 'swap' so
copying 'swap' and any other dependancy, and moving it to a block,
along with it's documentation on it's own doc block and you can do
something most anyone else in the project can't do. You can show them
ALL of the code that is relevent. I like that.

Thanks again Gwenhwyfaer, for the advice and the luck, I'll need them both. :-)

Ray

--
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[Nick Maroudas-2]

Quoting vaded@...:

>... " Does anyone know which company is manufacturing
>... " the SEAForth processors?
>... " Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>... "
>... "

Nick here,

I thought IntellaSys did this - until now.  So is your
enquiry actual fabrication, as opposed to marketing?

For what it's worth, here is a letter from someone at
IntellaSys who might be able to answer your question.


Caritas,

Nick
   
Date:   Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:13:37 -0800
From:   Colleen Hoge <colleen@...>
To:   Nick Maroudas <alice@...>
Subject:   RE: Website request: FORTHdrive inquiry

Hi Nick,

Thank you for your interest in IntellaSys and the
SEAforth product.  Iâll add your name to the interest
list. We unfortunately currently only have a very small
number of FORTHdrives that we need to hand out to
revenue generating customers.  We hope to have
significant quantities available by end of March/early
April.

In the meantime, we have just released a newer version
of the T18/SEAtools compiler and simulator toolkit. You
may download the Release Version 1.3.0 at the following
web address:
http://www.intellasys.net/files/T18_SEAtoolsv1.3.1.zip.
Please take note that extraction of the zip file and
installation software constitutes your agreement with
the licensing terms as stated in the IntellaSys Test
and Development Agreement (READMETestDevAgmtv1.2.pdf).
We strongly encourage you to read this document before
you begin using the T18/SEAtools.  

I would also like to cordially invite you to join us for
updates, news and exchange of information and opinions
at our SEAforth Community Forum at
www.intellasys.net/phpBB.  
 
Please let me know if you need anything else.

Regards,
Colleen Hoge
Marketing Communications Manager
IntellaSys, A TPL Group Enterprise


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[Albert van der Horst]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:38:47PM -0600, Ray St. Marie wrote:
> I've spent a day trying to figure out how I will implement larger then
> 32 bit ( 27 really) numbers in colorforth for Project Euler Problem 3.
>
> Find the Greatest Prime Factor of 600851475143.

>
> One of the things I've learn include a "divide and conquer" algorithm
> where the large number is split up into smaller chunks and then
> manipulated in scale and then re-combined.
>
> Also, I've been searching through the Pentium Manuals to see if there
> is integer functions in some of the larger registers on board.

There is a division operator that spans 2 registers, effectively
doing the SM/REM action of ISO Forth in one instruction.
That is 64 by 32 bit division.
It is called IDIV

Then there is a DIV, an unsigned version.

>
> I'm curious as to how some of you more educated programmers would
> proceed... If you would care to elaborate your opinions, please?
>
> I don't have a software guru that helps me with programming and so I
> would really like to hear from someone with more experience.

I have done a multiprecision factoring on the Z80 in 1 Kbyte.
That algorithm would be suitable on colorforth.
It is on my site, programmed in Forth, called Horst algo.

>
> TIA
> Ray
>
> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:52 PM, Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...> wrote:
> > On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...> wrote:
> >> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Albert van der Horst
> >> <albert@...> wrote:
> >>> On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 09:59:18AM -0600, Ray St. Marie wrote:
> >
> >>>>
> >>>> http://projecteuler.net/
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm fairly certain that I won't be able to do all 200 or so problems
> >>>> without research or help.
> >>>
> >>> I sorted the problems by difficulty, and I'm up to the math, mostly.
> >
> > lol, I'm not up to the math, I can promise you. But that ain't gonna
> > stop me! :-) Never has, never will.
> >
> > Good luck Albert!
> > I suppose you are not going in order then, being that you are looking
> > at them by difficulty. I suppose the trick is to find the hardest
> > problem you can possibly do with out much help, do all of the ones
> > before that one cuz they will be quick, then the rest, hoping what you
> > learned from the ones you did know how to do the ones you don't.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> >>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
> >>> Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
> >>> albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Raymond St. Marie ii,
> > colorforthray.info
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Raymond St. Marie ii,
> colorforthray.info
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: colorforth-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: colorforth-help@...
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>

--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

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[Gwenhwyfaer]

On 10/05/2008, Albert van der Horst <albert@...> wrote:
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:38:47PM -0600, Ray St. Marie wrote:
>  > I've spent a day trying to figure out how I will implement larger then
>  > 32 bit ( 27 really) numbers in colorforth for Project Euler Problem 3.
>  >
>  > Find the Greatest Prime Factor of 600851475143.

> There is a division operator that spans 2 registers, effectively
>  doing the SM/REM action of ISO Forth in one instruction.
>  That is 64 by 32 bit division.
>  It is called IDIV

Unfortunately, it only returns 32-bit (31-bit, if signed) results -
which means that determining whether 3 is a factor of the above number
will necessitate a true double-precision division (64/32 returning
64).

Regards
Gwenhwyfaer

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[vaded]

Yes, actual fabrication.  Thank you for the contact
person.

On Sat, 10 May 2008 20:45:18 +0300, "Nick Maroudas"
<alice@...> said:

> Quoting vaded@...:
>
> >... " Does anyone know which company is manufacturing
> >... " the SEAForth processors?
> >... " Any information would be greatly appreciated.
> >... "
> >... "
>
> Nick here,
>
> I thought IntellaSys did this - until now.  So is your
> enquiry actual fabrication, as opposed to marketing?
>
> For what it's worth, here is a letter from someone at
> IntellaSys who might be able to answer your question.
>
>
> Caritas,
>
> Nick
>    
> Date:   Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:13:37 -0800
> From:   Colleen Hoge <colleen@...>
> To:   Nick Maroudas <alice@...>
> Subject:   RE: Website request: FORTHdrive inquiry
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> Thank you for your interest in IntellaSys and the
> SEAforth product.  Iâll add your name to the interest
> list. We unfortunately currently only have a very small
> number of FORTHdrives that we need to hand out to
> revenue generating customers.  We hope to have
> significant quantities available by end of March/early
> April.
>
> In the meantime, we have just released a newer version
> of the T18/SEAtools compiler and simulator toolkit. You
> may download the Release Version 1.3.0 at the following
> web address:
> http://www.intellasys.net/files/T18_SEAtoolsv1.3.1.zip.
> Please take note that extraction of the zip file and
> installation software constitutes your agreement with
> the licensing terms as stated in the IntellaSys Test
> and Development Agreement (READMETestDevAgmtv1.2.pdf).
> We strongly encourage you to read this document before
> you begin using the T18/SEAtools.  
>
> I would also like to cordially invite you to join us for
> updates, news and exchange of information and opinions
> at our SEAforth Community Forum at
> www.intellasys.net/phpBB.  
>  
> Please let me know if you need anything else.
>
> Regards,
> Colleen Hoge
> Marketing Communications Manager
> IntellaSys, A TPL Group Enterprise
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: colorforth-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: colorforth-help@...
> Main web page - http://www.colorforth.com
>

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[vaded]

Mr. Fox,

I was wondering if you were familiar with the processors designed by
Rajit Manohar, and if you are, could you briefly give your opinion of
them and compare them to the work yourself and Moore et al are working
with?

I am in a forum dialog that has gone beyond my ability to comment:

-----

A: Chuck Moore has, as far as I am able to discern, created such a
radically faster and lower power chip that is without peer or
competition.



G: Why without peer or competition? As far as I can tell, the source of
the gains is asynchronous and parallel operation. Caltech computer
science has been pursuing these techniques for decades. As I have
written for some time, it is becoming mandatory because a single clock
pulse can no longer propagate across an entire chip within the switching
delay of transistor circuitry.

So I am all for asynch--throw away the clock like Easy Rider--but every
attempt so far to achieve fully asynchronous computing devices,
optimized for speed and low power, suffers rigidities and programming
idiosyncrasies that thwart its adoption. Andrew Lines of Fulcrum made a
heroic attempt, but Fulcrum is now focusing on networking PHYs, I
believe.

Moore's SEAForth system seems to entail adopting new architectures, a
new language, new testing and debugging methods, and new modes of
parallelism. It requires the world to adapt to it rather than it
adapting to the world. At the end of the day, the advantages (20 GigaOps
with a focus on Fourier transforms that can be performed by other
special purpose devices) are not sufficiently overwhelming to enforce
acceptance.

A better approach comes from Rajit Manohar of Achronix, a Carver Mead
protege who built the first asynchronous microprocessor based on the
MIPS instruction set and has focused on creating compilers that allow
the translation of ordinary ASICs to his asychronous field programmable
gate arrays. Rajit and Carver will both be at Telecosm, and if you are
intrigued, we might be able to work out a student discount or whatever.

GG

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[Nick Maroudas-2]

Quoting vaded@...: [who is quoting this
posting by "G"]
>... "
>... " G:  Moore's SEAForth system seems to entail
adopting new architectures, a
>... " new language, new testing and debugging methods,
>... " and new modes of
>... " parallelism. It requires the world to adapt to
>... " it rather than it
>... " adapting to the world.
>... "

Nick here,

A propos, recall another quote:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the
unreasonable man insists on adapting the world to
himself; therefor: all progress depends on the
unreasonable man."  - Bernard Shaw, Revolutionary's
Handbook
 

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[Nick Maroudas-2]

Quoting vaded@...: [who is quoting this
posting by "G"]
>... "
>... " G:  Moore's SEAForth system seems to entail
adopting new architectures, a
>... " new language, new testing and debugging methods,
>... " and new modes of
>... " parallelism. It requires the world to adapt to
>... " it rather than it
>... " adapting to the world.
>... "

Nick here,

A propos, recall another quote:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the
unreasonable man insists on adapting the world to
himself; therefor: all progress depends on the
unreasonable man."  - Bernard Shaw, Revolutionary's
Handbook
 

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