Nabble - Electric Vehicle Discussion List

Re: Prius on Hymotion steroids

2008-10-11T14:36:15Z

Well your right, not every one has access to professional tools but we
all have access to gps or topo maps. We have access to known fuel
levels you put in your car. You can also drive your gasser a known
distance and drive it and see what the results are.

I always fill my TDI to a specific level and measure my mileage that
way and never rely on a gauge to do that for me. Filling to a known
level is the only way to check and you can't get accurate results with
doing that once. It must be done exactly the same for at least 10
fillups. You can do that. I sure would if I were sending info to the
list. I do that at tdiclub.com. So do others.

How did you estimate your mileage?

Sorry but it just makes no sense to post this when we really need info
from all who have a plugin prius. It is important to give at least
better results.

It is not required to have professional tools to give good information.

Don't be too quick to post information when it really is not tested.
That will only result in disappointment.

PS. We do have lives.

I for one want real world information on these plugin hybrids. Is it
really on steroids? I hope so.

Please, you don't need to respond with that tone. We all want what's
best.

Pete : )

On Oct 11, 2008, at 12:09 PM, James Morrison wrote:

> Not everyone has access to all of the tools to measure everything.
> If you have such a problem with a basic review of the Hymotion
> system, please feel free to unsubscribe.
> That has to be the most anal retentive response ever.
> Get a life.

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Re: Prius on Hymotion steroids

2008-10-11T14:24:50Z

Spot on.

Pete : )

On Oct 11, 2008, at 11:59 AM, EVDL Administrator wrote:

> What do others think? Am I being too negative here, or expecting
> too much?

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Re: Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?

2008-10-11T14:04:05Z

The only variable is the resistance of the ceramic element. Voltage drop across the circuit is fixed, so resistance of the fixed resistor plus the ceramic element is controlling the current in the circuit.

The value of the fixed resistor will control the point of equilibrium (ceramic element temperature) in the circuit. 100 Ohms looks like a good starting point. This would limit the short circuit current to roughly 3 amps. The fixed resistor would need to be rated at 1000 watts (P=I^2*R). 100 ohms is also the resistance of the ceramic element at room temperature (coincidence?).

A higher value for the fixed resistor would result in a lower temperature at the ceramic element and value that is too high would result in poor heater performance.

A lower value would result in a hotter ceramic element, and a value that is too low would probably result in a ceramic element that burns out prematurely.

If the fixed resistor was mounted to a heat sink or in the heater air stream, this power dissipation could also be used to provide heat.

In the long run, it is probably better to just buy a heater rated for 220VAC....
-Stephen Chapman

Phil_Marino wrote:

> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:59:02 -0700
> From: enganear@gmail.com
> I think you are overlooking the fact that the increasing resistance in the
> ceramic element would decrease the current, therefore decreasing the heating
> therefor decreasing the resistance until equilibrium was reached.

No, I'm not overlooking that. Let me try to make this clearer:

First, I agree - increasing PTC resistance would decrease the current, BUT the voltage across the PTC would increase at the same time. This is because the voltage across the fixed resistor would decrease due to the decreased current ( and, the voltage across the PTC = the total series voltage [constant] less the voltage drop across the fixed resistor).

So, since power = voltage x current, and the current is decreasing while the voltage is increasing, the power dissipated in the PTC might decrease , or might increase. It depends on the relative resistances of the PTC and the fixed resistor, the PTC curve of resistance vs temeperature, the total series voltage, the airflow, etc.

So, it might be OK, and it might not.

Phil Marino

Re: Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?

2008-10-11T13:01:49Z

> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:59:02 -0700
> From: enganear@...
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?
>
>
> I think you are overlooking the fact that the increasing resistance in the
> ceramic element would decrease the current, therefore decreasing the heating
> therefor decreasing the resistance until equilibrium was reached.

No, I'm not overlooking that. Let me try to make this clearer:

First, I agree - increasing PTC resistance would decrease the current, BUT the voltage across the PTC would increase at the same time. This is because the voltage across the fixed resistor would decrease due to the decreased current ( and, the voltage across the PTC = the total series voltage [constant] less the voltage drop across the fixed resistor).

So, since power = voltage x current, and the current is decreasing while the voltage is increasing, the power dissipated in the PTC might decrease , or might increase. It depends on the relative resistances of the PTC and the fixed resistor, the PTC curve of resistance vs temeperature, the total series voltage, the airflow, etc.

So, it might be OK, and it might not.

Phil Marino

You would

> have a fixed resistor in series with a variable resistor. Size the fixed
> resistor to handle the power dissipation even if the ceramic element is a
> dead short and you would be golden.
> -Stephen Chapman
>
>
>
> Phil_Marino wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 07:20:44 -0700
> >> From: enganear@...
> >> To: ev@...
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more
> >> than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?
> >>
> >>
> >> So it appears a fixed power resistor in series with a ceramic core might
> >> be
> >> the answer for higher voltage use. Both devices turn amps into heat, the
> >> ceramic core is better at transferring the heat to air.
> >> -Stephen Chapman
> >>
> >>
> > I disagree. I think that could be unsafe. You'd have to make sure that
> > the resistor could somehow get rid of its heat and stay below a reasonable
> > temperature, especially difficult since the resistor would not respond (
> > like a PTC ceramic element) to unsafe high temperatures by increasing its
> > resistance and therefore limiting its temperature.
> >
> > But, even worse, the ceramic PTC element would not be able to control its
> > own power dissipation well. When it got hot and its resistance went up,
> > the voltage across it would rise ( because the lower current would reduce
> > the voltage drop across the series fixed resistor) so that an increase in
> > the PTC resistance could lead to more power dissipation in the ceramic
> > element, not less. You could easily have a runaway situation.
> >
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live.
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> > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Does-anyone-know-of-a-source-for-high-voltage%2C-more-than-240volt%2C-ceramic-heater-cores--tp19882549p19934884.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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HTD belt for drive train?

2008-10-11T12:37:31Z

Anyone know what belt types would be OK to use for a belt driven drive
train?
What did Otmar use in his porsche? Gilmer blower belt or HTD Radius style?

Stub

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Re: Jet Electrica Series Motor

2008-10-11T12:12:30Z

> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:23:21 -0700
> From: njbrw549@...
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Jet Electrica Series Motor
>
> Pos to A2 and neg to S2 .The pos from the pack is hooked to the pos on
> the controller and the S2 terminal on my motor. (8" adc series )
> Bill

If it's a series motor, you can switch positive and negative and it won't make any difference. So, you can do it whichever way is more convenient for your setup.

But, if you find your motor runs backwards, run the power leads to A2 and S1 instead of A2 and S2 ( and connect the two remaining motor terminals together.)

Phil Marino

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Re: Prius on Hymotion steroids

2008-10-11T12:09:56Z

David Roden wrote:

What do others think? Am I being too negative here, or expecting too much?
Jesus, it is just a test drive reporting some basic results. Not everyone has access to all of the tools to measure everything.
If you have such a problem with a basic review of the Hymotion system, please feel free to unsubscribe.
That has to be the most anal retentive response ever.
Get a life.

> > ------------------------------> > Message: 23> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:59:05 -0400> From: "EVDL Administrator" <evpost@...>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Prius on Hymotion steroids> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@...>> Message-ID: <48F0BF39.2195.231175@...>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1> > I hate to say it, but I don't see much to bank on in this report. It seems > to be awfully heavy on the estimates and guesses, and short on use of > accurate instrumentation.> > "I tried making elevation profiles but since the highway was next to the > hills it looked like I was climbing 200 feet when I was actually on pretty > level terrain with only slight elevation changes." > > "I believe I can estimate a total distance of about 55 miles with cruise > control."> > "My ScanGauge showed 101MPG but I can estimate it more in the 125MPG area > because of the GPH bug." > > "Actual Distance - 50.7> Estimated Distance - 55 miles"> > In the city "test," the author says> > "Right after about 25 miles EV mode canceled and the engine started ... I > pulled over in a parking lot and put the car in park. I watched as the SOC > slowly climbed ... then took off again in EV mode ... pulled over again ... > a total of three times between mile 25 and 33."> > Later he says, > > "Fuel used - Technically 0"> > It's unclear to me how the Prius's engine could have started 3 times but > "technically" used no fuel.> > This is a most interesting report, and I commend those who are building plug > conversions for the Prius and those who invest in them. I also don't want to > discourage the owners and drivers from reporting their experiences. And it > may be that I'm too much affected by the accuracy and detail I've come to > expect from published tests of all kinds of gear, from digital cameras to > automobiles. Still, it seems to me that to call this a "test," even an > "unofficial offical" one, is a bit of a stretch. > > To determine how well the Hymotion conversion actually performs, it seems to > me that you'd want to use a calibrated device for measuring actual distance, > such as the fifth wheel that the auto mags used to employ (and maybe still > do). You'd want to measure the actual fuel consumed, not rely on a scan > guage (especially one that's known to be inaccurate or "buggy"!). You'd use > contour maps and/or a good GPS to determine elevation changes. > > You'd also report the weather and road conditions, as they have an effect on > the results (this report makes almost no mention of them). You'd use a test > track, or at least make sure you traveled the route both directions to (one > hopes) cancel out the effects of prevailing winds and elevation changes.> > What do others think? Am I being too negative here, or expecting too much?> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA> EVDL Administrator> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = => EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not > reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my > email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = => > > > > > ------------------------------> > _______________________________________________> EV@...> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev> > > > End of EV Digest, Vol 15, Issue 18> **********************************
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Re: Prius on Hymotion steroids

2008-10-11T11:59:05Z

I hate to say it, but I don't see much to bank on in this report. It seems
to be awfully heavy on the estimates and guesses, and short on use of
accurate instrumentation.

"I tried making elevation profiles but since the highway was next to the
hills it looked like I was climbing 200 feet when I was actually on pretty
level terrain with only slight elevation changes."

"I believe I can estimate a total distance of about 55 miles with cruise
control."

"My ScanGauge showed 101MPG but I can estimate it more in the 125MPG area
because of the GPH bug."

"Actual Distance - 50.7
Estimated Distance - 55 miles"

In the city "test," the author says

"Right after about 25 miles EV mode canceled and the engine started ... I
pulled over in a parking lot and put the car in park. I watched as the SOC
slowly climbed ... then took off again in EV mode ... pulled over again ...
a total of three times between mile 25 and 33."

Later he says,

"Fuel used - Technically 0"

It's unclear to me how the Prius's engine could have started 3 times but
"technically" used no fuel.

This is a most interesting report, and I commend those who are building plug
conversions for the Prius and those who invest in them. I also don't want to
discourage the owners and drivers from reporting their experiences. And it
may be that I'm too much affected by the accuracy and detail I've come to
expect from published tests of all kinds of gear, from digital cameras to
automobiles. Still, it seems to me that to call this a "test," even an
"unofficial offical" one, is a bit of a stretch.

To determine how well the Hymotion conversion actually performs, it seems to
me that you'd want to use a calibrated device for measuring actual distance,
such as the fifth wheel that the auto mags used to employ (and maybe still
do). You'd want to measure the actual fuel consumed, not rely on a scan
guage (especially one that's known to be inaccurate or "buggy"!). You'd use
contour maps and/or a good GPS to determine elevation changes.

You'd also report the weather and road conditions, as they have an effect on
the results (this report makes almost no mention of them). You'd use a test
track, or at least make sure you traveled the route both directions to (one
hopes) cancel out the effects of prevailing winds and elevation changes.

What do others think? Am I being too negative here, or expecting too much?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: Jet Electrica Series Motor

2008-10-11T11:23:21Z

Pos to A2 and neg to S2 .The pos from the pack is hooked to the pos on
the controller and the S2 terminal on my motor. (8" adc series )
Bill
Clif Martin wrote:

> I am upgrading a jet electrica 007 to a Curtis 1221 controller. I am a bit confused about the wiring. There were originally three #2 wires connected to the motor at A1, A2, and S2. There is a metal bar between A1 and S1. To test the motor I hooked +12Volts to S2 and -12 volts to A2 and the motor spun and turned the wheels of the car. I thought this is how the motor should be hooked up to run on 120 volts DC also. Is this correct? What is the third wire connected to A1 for? Was that just for the old EV1 controller?
> I also would like to use the contactor from the electrica. If I hook +12 volts to one of the small screw connections on the side of the contactor and -12 volts to the other shouldn't the contactor pull in? Does it matter which is positive and which is negative? I want to test it before I start mounting things.
>
> Thanks,
> Clif
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
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>
>
>

Re: Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?

2008-10-11T10:59:01Z

I think you are overlooking the fact that the increasing resistance in the ceramic element would decrease the current, therefore decreasing the heating therefore decreasing the resistance until equilibrium was reached. You would have a fixed resistor in series with a variable resistor. Size the fixed resistor to handle the power dissipation even if the ceramic element is a dead short and you would be golden.
-Stephen Chapman

Phil_Marino wrote:

> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 07:20:44 -0700
> From: enganear@gmail.com
> To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?
>
>
> So it appears a fixed power resistor in series with a ceramic core might be
> the answer for higher voltage use. Both devices turn amps into heat, the
> ceramic core is better at transferring the heat to air.
> -Stephen Chapman
>
>
I disagree. I think that could be unsafe. You'd have to make sure that the resistor could somehow get rid of its heat and stay below a reasonable temperature, especially difficult since the resistor would not respond ( like a PTC ceramic element) to unsafe high temperatures by increasing its resistance and therefore limiting its temperature.

But, even worse, the ceramic PTC element would not be able to control its own power dissipation well. When it got hot and its resistance went up, the voltage across it would rise ( because the lower current would reduce the voltage drop across the series fixed resistor) so that an increase in the PTC resistance could lead to more power dissipation in the ceramic element, not less. You could easily have a runaway situation.

Phil

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Re: Jet Electrica Series Motor

2008-10-11T10:38:04Z

It sounds like that controller is setup for plug braking. Not usually
desirable in an EV. What you thought is the usual way to hook it up. I
dont know about the contactor. Did you try reversing the 12 volt
connections?

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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Jet Electrica Series Motor

2008-10-11T10:11:19Z

I am upgrading a jet electrica 007 to a Curtis 1221 controller. I am a bit confused about the wiring. There were originally three #2 wires connected to the motor at A1, A2, and S2. There is a metal bar between A1 and S1. To test the motor I hooked +12Volts to S2 and -12 volts to A2 and the motor spun and turned the wheels of the car. I thought this is how the motor should be hooked up to run on 120 volts DC also. Is this correct? What is the third wire connected to A1 for? Was that just for the old EV1 controller?
I also would like to use the contactor from the electrica. If I hook +12 volts to one of the small screw connections on the side of the contactor and -12 volts to the other shouldn't the contactor pull in? Does it matter which is positive and which is negative? I want to test it before I start mounting things.

Thanks,
Clif
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Re: Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?

2008-10-11T09:47:58Z

> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 07:20:44 -0700
> From: enganear@...
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?
>
>
> So it appears a fixed power resistor in series with a ceramic core might be
> the answer for higher voltage use. Both devices turn amps into heat, the
> ceramic core is better at transferring the heat to air.
> -Stephen Chapman
>
>

I disagree. I think that could be unsafe. You'd have to make sure that the resistor could somehow get rid of its heat and stay below a reasonable temperature, especially difficult since the resistor would not respond ( like a PTC ceramic element) to unsafe high temperatures by increasing its resistance and therefore limiting its temperature.

But, even worse, the ceramic PTC element would not be able to control its own power dissipation well. When it got hot and its resistance went up, the voltage across it would rise ( because the lower current would reduce the voltage drop across the series fixed resistor) so that an increase in the PTC resistance could lead to more power dissipation in the ceramic element, not less. You could easily have a runaway situation.

Phil

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Prius on Hymotion steroids

2008-10-11T08:32:04Z

We have some city and highway test results for the Hymotion battery performance. The full details are here.
www.peakoilgarage.com

Toyota Prius on Hymotion Steroids

So lets review highway with cruise control set at 55mph.
Actual Distance – 50.7Estimated Distance - 55 milesActual MPG According to SG – 101MPGEstimated MPG Because of SGII GPH Bug - ~125MPGEstimated Pack Size – 17.5AhAmount of Electricity to fully charge - 5541.2Wh

So lets review city driving with EV mode only.
Actual Distance – 33 milesEstimated Distance – 25 good easy miles. 33 miles if you work at it.Fuel used - Technically 0Estimated Pack Size – 18.5AhAmount of Electricity to fully charge – 5295.7WhWh per mile - ~160Wh

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Re: Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?

2008-10-11T07:20:40Z

So it appears a fixed power resistor in series with a ceramic core might be the answer for higher voltage use. Both devices turn amps into heat, the ceramic core is better at transferring the heat to air.
-Stephen Chapman

James Massey wrote:

At 07:50 AM 11/10/08, David Roden wrote:
>On 8 Oct 2008 at 20:20, Phil Marino wrote:
>
> > Now, let's say that one heater had slightly higher resistance than the
> others,
> > ( and, of course, they won't be precisely identical) . Since the current in
> > all of them is the same, the one with the higher resistance would suck more
> > power and produce more heat than the others.
>
>When the resistance in one element increased, wouldn't the total current in
>the circuit be reduced? (Enough, though?)
>
>Maybe it would depend on how sharp the "knee" where the resistance increases
>is. Or maybe one just needs to be sure that all elements are in a common
>physical space so they stay at the same temperature, or nearly so (as in the
>case when all the elements are on one ceramic substrate).

G'day David, Phil, All

I found the test results:

Celsius Ohms
-15 115.0
-10 108.9
-5 96.5
0 89.3
5 79.4
10 72.3
15 66.0
20 60.4
25 53.8
30 50.0
35 46.7
40 43.7
45 40.7
50 37.8
55 35.5
60 33.3
65 31.2
70 29.7
75 28.0
80 26.5
85 25.2
90 23.8
95 22.6
100 21.6
105 20.6
110 19.7
115 18.9
120 18.1
125 17.5
130 16.8
135 16.2
140 15.6
145 15.4
150 14.6
155 14.2
160 13.9
165 13.6
170 13.4
175 13.2
180 13.0
185 12.9
190 12.8
195 12.8
200 12.9
205 13.0
210 13.3
215 13.5
220 14.1
225
230 19.2
235 22.7
240
250 49.3
255 102.0
260 230.2
265 457.5
266 463.0

The gaps are where no reading was taken as I was changing power supplies
around and oveshot the value (up to 220C I used 35V, by the time I got to
265 I needed 199V to continue heating, and only reached 266C with no more
power supplies to series up).

So, 'knees up' radically at a little over 240 celcius.

Putting them in series where the airflow is not consistent but has the
elements all below 180C will tend to result in the cooler one having higher
resistance and dropping more voltage, so heating up further and balancing
out. Above 200C the hotter one will drop more volts and get hotter, going
up in resistance and getting worse.

Hope this helps someone.

Regards

[Technik] James

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Re: Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?

2008-10-10T21:22:19Z

EVDL Administrator wrote:
> On 8 Oct 2008 at 20:20, Phil Marino wrote:
>
>> Now, let's say that one heater had slightly higher resistance than the others,
>> ( and, of course, they won't be precisely identical) . Since the current in
>> all of them is the same, the one with the higher resistance would suck more
>> power and produce more heat than the others.
>
> When the resistance in one element increased, wouldn't the total current in
> the circuit be reduced? (Enough, though?)

You'd just have to do the math. Each heater element will have a rating
of how much heat it is designed to produce without self-damage; don't
exceed that rating.

Outside of that there's no requirement that the heat be equal from each
element. You also don't need to run at max rating. If they're rated at
1000 watts, one's putting out 900 and the other 750... who cares.

You could try 600v heaters intended for transit (streetcars, light rail,
trolleybuses).

Robert

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Re: LED battery pack gauge - DIY instructions posted

2008-10-10T20:37:31Z

You're right, I did. It helps if I get the right number. Found the spec
sheet. I was wondering how high a supply voltage the things would go to.

The sheet says +25V, so it should handle an equalizing 12v battery just fine
at 15.5V.

Thanks
Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Rod Hower
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 5:38 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED battery pack gauge - DIY instructions posted
>
> Mike,
> I think you googled the wrong part, it should be the LM3914
> http://www.national.com/mpf/LM/LM3914.html
> Rod

Re: Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?

2008-10-10T20:26:53Z

At 07:50 AM 11/10/08, David Roden wrote:

>On 8 Oct 2008 at 20:20, Phil Marino wrote:
>
> > Now, let's say that one heater had slightly higher resistance than the
> others,
> > ( and, of course, they won't be precisely identical) . Since the current in
> > all of them is the same, the one with the higher resistance would suck more
> > power and produce more heat than the others.
>
>When the resistance in one element increased, wouldn't the total current in
>the circuit be reduced? (Enough, though?)
>
>Maybe it would depend on how sharp the "knee" where the resistance increases
>is. Or maybe one just needs to be sure that all elements are in a common
>physical space so they stay at the same temperature, or nearly so (as in the
>case when all the elements are on one ceramic substrate).

G'day David, Phil, All

I found the test results:

Celsius Ohms
-15 115.0
-10 108.9
-5 96.5
0 89.3
5 79.4
10 72.3
15 66.0
20 60.4
25 53.8
30 50.0
35 46.7
40 43.7
45 40.7
50 37.8
55 35.5
60 33.3
65 31.2
70 29.7
75 28.0
80 26.5
85 25.2
90 23.8
95 22.6
100 21.6
105 20.6
110 19.7
115 18.9
120 18.1
125 17.5
130 16.8
135 16.2
140 15.6
145 15.4
150 14.6
155 14.2
160 13.9
165 13.6
170 13.4
175 13.2
180 13.0
185 12.9
190 12.8
195 12.8
200 12.9
205 13.0
210 13.3
215 13.5
220 14.1
225
230 19.2
235 22.7
240
250 49.3
255 102.0
260 230.2
265 457.5
266 463.0

The gaps are where no reading was taken as I was changing power supplies
around and oveshot the value (up to 220C I used 35V, by the time I got to
265 I needed 199V to continue heating, and only reached 266C with no more
power supplies to series up).

So, 'knees up' radically at a little over 240 celcius.

Putting them in series where the airflow is not consistent but has the
elements all below 180C will tend to result in the cooler one having higher
resistance and dropping more voltage, so heating up further and balancing
out. Above 200C the hotter one will drop more volts and get hotter, going
up in resistance and getting worse.

Hope this helps someone.

Regards

[Technik] James

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A bit of explanation of the FocusEV wiring diagram (was: Re: using 12 volt aux battery for reverse)

2008-10-10T19:46:19Z

Nick,

Its great to have a second set of eyes look over the wiring plans. Im in
the middle of hooking all of this up.

As far as the position of the relays in the diagram, they are drawn in the
position that exists when theres no power to anything. The Normally Open
contact is shown as open and the Normally Closed contact is shown as closed.
This is the only way Ive ever seen relay circuits drawn. Once you know this
fact it *should* be straightforward to figure out what happens as the state of
each of the wires coming into the circuit change to the operational state. (I
also indicate the normal operational state below each of these wires.) Sorry
if this isnt all clear. This all would be much easier if we could get
together in a room with a whiteboard and talk it through.

To help others understand whats going on I tried adding the timeline on the
bottom of the diagram. This describes the basics of the sequence for a normal
start-up. I also added the Wiring Notes page just below the wiring diagram.
They probably arent as clear to others as to me, which is the case with many
of the EV diagrams Ive come across.
By the way Im making a few adjustments to the wiring and will post an updated
version sometime soon.

I know the diagram would be cleaner if I made it multiple pages. As with many
other things it began life much less cluttered and Ive squeezed in new
elements as they came to me. Someday maybe Ill find time to re-draw it to be
clearer, but it works for me at the moment, and Im spending most of my time
on all of the connections to finally get my first EV on the road.

I thought about (and at one time had in the circuit) a latching relay for the
start position. When I found that the Curtis controller has a high pedal
disable feature I realized that the latch isnt really needed for safety, so
I eliminated it. Besides, the car doesnt have to be started in the
traditional sense, so I dont really need to use the start position. If
someone turns all the way to the start position, it will still work, but it
isnt required. After the key is turned to the run position, the Curtis
input caps will charge and a green Pedal Hot light on the dashboard will
come on. Then just pressing the pedal will make it go.

If someone has turned the key and pressed the pedal, inadvertent or not, it
will move. I dont see that as a problem, but others might want to add the
latching start relay.

Chris

*****************

Nick wrote:

Great schematic, I'll be studying it carefully -- it is considerably more
complete than the one I had been working on -- goes to show who the EE is!

I will definitely implement that reversing logic.

Dale,
I'd be concerned that any mishaps with your proposed solution and I'd be
putting my 12V in parallel with my traction pack with explosive consequences.

Chris,
Only two comments so far on that schematic (sorry for the thread hijack):

For clarity, the relays could be drawn in their positions when the car is
powered on, but accel has not been pressed yet. It took me a few minutes to
understand the bottom set of relays since some are normally energised, but
all are drawn unpowered. For that matter, (I don't know what software
you're using to sketch), two or three schems would really clarify things for
the uninitiated.

You have a "12V Run" input to your relay logic, I'm assuming its from the
key in the on position. Did you consider/discard using a latching relay to
take a pulse from cranking the key to start? Or is that done somewhere
else (in the original wiring) for you? It would suck for someone to put the
key to ON to raise the windows or something, then inadvertantly hit the
pedal and damage something/one.

Cheers,
-Nick

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Strongly considering an EV conversion at the moment...

Re: LED battery pack gauge - DIY instructions posted

2008-10-10T18:38:27Z

Mike,
I think you googled the wrong part, it should be the LM3914
http://www.national.com/mpf/LM/LM3914.html
Rod

--- On Fri, 10/10/08, electrabishi@... <electrabishi@...> wrote:

> From: electrabishi@... <electrabishi@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED battery pack gauge - DIY instructions posted
> To: ev@...
> Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 4:41 PM
> can someone point to the datasheet for the LM3419?
>
> This looks like a cool project. Thanks for sharing
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 7:30 AM, Darin at-
> forkenswift.com wrote:
>
> > Hi all -
> > Some of you may remember that the ForkenSwift has a
> great home-brew
> > LED
> > battery pack gauge with an equalizer-like display to
> show which of the
> > worn-out batteries I'm about to murder next:
> >
> > See the monitor in action:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHlq1J5dbb4
> >
> > While the parts list for making one of these has been
> on EVconvert.com
> > for
> > some time (in Part 1), its designer, James, has just
> posted
> > step-by-step
> > instructions (in Part 2) on how to assemble the
> modules:
> >
> > Part 1:
> http://www.evconvert.com/article/led-bargraph-battery-monitor
> > Part 2:
> >
> http://www.evconvert.com/article/led-bargraph-battery-monitor-part-2
> >
> > More than a few people have asked me about the gauge,
> so hopefully
> > some will
> > find this new info useful.
> >
> > The pack monitor has proved invaluable for extending
> the life of the
> > ForkenSwift's old &
> less-than-perfectly-balanced pack (by not
> > murdering the
> > runts of the litter under load).
> >
> > cheers-
> > Darin
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

Power tool batteries bah! Use the whole thing.

2008-10-10T18:07:08Z

Motor, controller & batteries. Why not. Lawrence Rhodes........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z8dFlVNrY8&NR=1
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Re: precharge and two contactors

2008-10-10T17:48:18Z

On Oct 9, 2008, at 2:16 PM, dave cover wrote:

> I am worried about shutting down the Zilla while under power. I don't
> know
> how much smoke would be released.

I'm not that worried about letting the smoke out. I figure that Otmar
has done a good job of making the Zilla fail-safe if you follow his
directions.

I'm more concerned about more mundane issues. Like, what happens if

- your brake pedal (or your potbox microswitch) opens the negative
contactor
- you sit at a stop light until the controller caps discharge
- you take your foot off the brake pedal and step on the accelerator

I would expect the Zilla to throw an error code and refuse to move the
car until you turn off the keyswitch and turn it back to Start. Not
exactly optimal behavior. But I don't know yet. I might try playing
with this once the car is together.

You probably don't want to wire things up so that your 12v feed to the
Zilla goes dead if the negative contact opens, either. This would
require a Zilla restart (with the keyswitch) every time the negative
contactor opens.

Unless you arrange things such that the negative contactor only opens
during an emergency, like with the Big Red Switch or the reed switch.
Then having the Zilla turned off might be what you want.

--
Doug Weathers | "The Moon. I've been there. It's super!"
Las Cruces, NM, USA | - Astronaut Charles "Pete" Conrad
http://www.gdunge.com/ |

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Re: LED battery pack gauge - DIY instructions posted

2008-10-10T17:02:45Z

Thanks Mark, woulda thought Googling LM3419 woulda turned up something.
I just needed a kick start on my creative search ideas.

Funny I sent this three times and didn't se my reply post to the board.
But I see your reply to me so it must have made it.

"Strange things are afoot at the Circle K"

Thanks
Mike

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Mark Grasser wrote:

> Go to www.digikey.com
>
> Type in LM3914
>
> You will find what you are looking for.
>
> Mark Grasser
> Eliot, ME
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of electrabishi@...
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:41 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED battery pack gauge - DIY instructions posted
>
> can someone point to the datasheet for the LM3419?
>
> This looks like a cool project. Thanks for sharing
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 7:30 AM, Darin at- forkenswift.com wrote:
>
>> Hi all -
>> Some of you may remember that the ForkenSwift has a great home-brew
>> LED
>> battery pack gauge with an equalizer-like display to show which of
>> the
>> worn-out batteries I'm about to murder next:
>>
>> See the monitor in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHlq1J5dbb4
>> While the parts list for making one of these has been on
>> EVconvert.com for
>> some time (in Part 1), its designer, James, has just posted
>> step-by-step
>> instructions (in Part 2) on how to assemble the modules:
>>
>> Part 1: http://www.evconvert.com/article/led-bargraph-battery-monitor
>> Part 2:
>> http://www.evconvert.com/article/led-bargraph-battery-monitor-part-2
>> More than a few people have asked me about the gauge, so hopefully
>> some will
>> find this new info useful.
>>
>> The pack monitor has proved invaluable for extending the life of the
>> ForkenSwift's old & less-than-perfectly-balanced pack (by not
>> murdering the
>> runts of the litter under load).
>>
>> cheers-
>> Darin
>
> _______________________________________________
> General EVDL support: http://evdl.org/help/
> Usage guidelines: http://evdl.org/help/index.html#conv
> Archives: http://evdl.org/archive/
> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: LED battery pack gauge - DIY instructions posted

2008-10-10T16:56:11Z

Go to www.digikey.com

Type in LM3914

You will find what you are looking for.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of electrabishi@...
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 7:41 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] LED battery pack gauge - DIY instructions posted

can someone point to the datasheet for the LM3419?

This looks like a cool project. Thanks for sharing

Mike

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 7:30 AM, Darin at- forkenswift.com wrote:

> Hi all -
> Some of you may remember that the ForkenSwift has a great home-brew
> LED
> battery pack gauge with an equalizer-like display to show which of the
> worn-out batteries I'm about to murder next:
>
> See the monitor in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHlq1J5dbb4
>
> While the parts list for making one of these has been on EVconvert.com
> for
> some time (in Part 1), its designer, James, has just posted
> step-by-step
> instructions (in Part 2) on how to assemble the modules:
>
> Part 1: http://www.evconvert.com/article/led-bargraph-battery-monitor
> Part 2:
> http://www.evconvert.com/article/led-bargraph-battery-monitor-part-2
>
> More than a few people have asked me about the gauge, so hopefully
> some will
> find this new info useful.
>
> The pack monitor has proved invaluable for extending the life of the
> ForkenSwift's old & less-than-perfectly-balanced pack (by not
> murdering the
> runts of the litter under load).
>
> cheers-
> Darin

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Re: LED battery pack gauge - DIY instructions posted

2008-10-10T16:41:06Z

can someone point to the datasheet for the LM3419?

This looks like a cool project. Thanks for sharing

Mike

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 7:30 AM, Darin at- forkenswift.com wrote:

Re: precharge and two contactors

2008-10-10T16:04:16Z

Don't worry about damaging the Zilla by shutting it down under power.
The Zilla won't be hurt.

Losing power is a fairly common problem, and it's fairly easy to
protect against. With how rock-solid Otmar designed the Zilla, I'd be
amazed if you could break it by opening a contactor in series with the
input.

-Morgan LaMoore

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:16 PM, dave cover <davecover@...> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:07 PM, Doug Weathers <dougw@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 5) A Big Red Switch on the dashboard.
>>
>>
> I actually have a big red switch that I can use. I was thinking about using
> it to open the key switch circuit, in effect turning off the ignition switch
> without locking up my steering wheel. I had it mounted in the back of the
> car and wired to a relay as a shutdown for the racing at Power of DC. The
> biggest problem is finding some real estate on my dash.
>
> I am worried about shutting down the Zilla while under power. I don't know
> how much smoke would be released.
>
> Dave Cover
> _______________________________________________
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> Subscription options: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

Re: using 12 volt aux battery for reverse

2008-10-10T13:50:52Z

On 9 Oct 2008 at 13:48, Jon Glauser wrote:

> when you put two resistors in parallel, their total (equivelant) resistance
> is:
>
> r1 + r2
> --------
> r1 * r2

Hmmm, that's not the way I learned it 40-some years ago.

The general formula I've always used is

Rsum = 1 / (1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/R3 + ...)

I think that

Rsum = (R1 * R2) / (R1 + R2) (the inverse of the above) works for any two
resistors, but not for more than two.

However, don't forget, I'm an engineering school dropout!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: precharge and two contactors

2008-10-10T13:50:52Z

On 9 Oct 2008 at 16:16, dave cover wrote:

> I am worried about shutting down the Zilla while under power. I don't know how
> much smoke would be released.

With all due respect, trust me -- when you're headed for the back wall of
the garage (or the rear end of the car ahead) at 30mph, that's the last
thing you'll be concerned about!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: Does anyone know of a source for high voltage, more than 240volt, ceramic heater cores?

2008-10-10T13:50:52Z

On 8 Oct 2008 at 20:20, Phil Marino wrote:

> Now, let's say that one heater had slightly higher resistance than the others,
> ( and, of course, they won't be precisely identical) . Since the current in
> all of them is the same, the one with the higher resistance would suck more
> power and produce more heat than the others.

When the resistance in one element increased, wouldn't the total current in
the circuit be reduced? (Enough, though?)

Maybe it would depend on how sharp the "knee" where the resistance increases
is. Or maybe one just needs to be sure that all elements are in a common
physical space so they stay at the same temperature, or nearly so (as in the
case when all the elements are on one ceramic substrate).

Or maybe I'm just missing something here.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Know anybody at Aptera, Wrightspeed, AC propulsion, etc?

2008-10-10T13:09:49Z

I am an EV owner: Honda Civic conversion with 40,000 ev miles 25k with me.

I also own a film/video production company and we are looking to do high-quality video web promotions for pure electric vehicles such as Aptera, Wrightspeed, Tesla, etc. Does anybody on the list know of anybody who works for any of these or similar companies?
thanks

Mike Malmberg
Iron Mountain Films, Inc.
888 635-1754 cell 916 204-5729
shoot@...

www.ironmountainfilms.com

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Re: Thundersky 12v pack?

2008-10-10T11:34:55Z

And we always trust the sales reps who have likely never been through the
factory in any meaningful way! :) Just me being a cycnic. I have dealt
with a few to many sales people.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Stopp [mailto:gene@...]
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 12:00 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thundersky 12v pack?

The reps also said that multiple-battery orders would be guaranteed to
be from the same production batch, same vats of chemicals, same day,
same workers wearing the same colors, etc.

- Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Stopp
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:57 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: RE: [EVDL] Thundersky 12v pack?

Nope, that's not it - it appeared to be four TS-LFP90AH bundled together
(I'm guessing size-wise) with covered intercell connections. It weighed
around 20-30 lbs.

- Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of matt
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:50 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Thundersky 12v pack?

Do u mean theses:
http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp?fid=66&fid2=82

They appear to be lithium cobalt.
Doesn't appear to be any balancing between the cells.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf
Of Gene Stopp
Sent: Saturday, 11 October 2008 1:25 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] Thundersky 12v pack?

Hi EVDL,

At the Santa Monica alt energy vehicle show last month, my wife and I
were
drooling over the 12v Thundersky Li-ion battery at the Elite Power
Solutions
(Phoenix distributor) table. The price was said to be $600 each. But I
don't
see it on their website, or the Thundersky web site - does anybody have
more
information on these, like specs and dimensions?
It was smaller than a typical 12v flooded, and substantially lighter.

Best Regards,

- Gene

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