EV kits on S.F.Craigslist

[cowtown]

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/car/674424757.html

An 800A contactor and "Regen braking with down shifting" and  
"remanufactured and modified jet fighter plane generator used as  
motor" sounds like an EV made in the 70's that avoids using that same  
era's more silicon-heavy controls (SCRs, Triodes, etc). Any idea how  
smoothly a VW-with-jet-starter/generator conversion can be driven in  
everyday use, how efficiently they run when compared to current motors  
and PWM controllers, and what is their comparative durability?

Would a "cutting-edge' Curtis SepEx controller, say 600A in the 36-84V  
range, make this older style conversion any more efficient, or would  
it also need a motor more specific to the job?





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[Peter VanDerWal]

There range figures are very questionable.  I'd be inclined to say BS.
60 miles at 55mp with a 72V pack of GC batteries?

This isn't like 1970's technology, it IS 1970's technology.  Specifically
it's a guy that has a large stockpile of equipment that is 30 years old
and he's trying to sell it for way to much.

For only about 10% more you can do a conversion that uses modern
components and will work with a normal conversion, not a fiberglass kit on
a VW pan.

> cowtown@... wrote:
>> An 800A contactor and "Regen braking with down shifting" and
>> "remanufactured and modified jet fighter plane generator used as
>> motor" sounds like an EV made in the 70's that avoids using that same
>> era's more silicon-heavy controls (SCRs, Triodes, etc). Any idea how
>> smoothly a VW-with-jet-starter/generator conversion can be driven in
>> everyday use, how efficiently they run when compared to current motors
>> and PWM controllers, and what is their comparative durability?
>
> The 1970's aircraft starter-generators are still state-of-the-art today;
> DC motor technology has hardly moved. They have huge strong commutators,
> class H insulation, interpoles and pole facing windings, high speed
> bearings, are banded and balanced for high RPM, etc. They are excellent
> for regenerative braking.
>
> However, they were optimized to be light, not efficient. Compared to a
> modern series DC traction motor, The aircraft starter-generator is about
> half the weight but only 75% efficient versus 85%. They also didn't care
> about noise; these things scream like a giant vacuum cleaner.
>
> Smoothness isn't a characteristic of the motor; it's a characteristic of
> the controller.
>
>> Would a "cutting-edge' Curtis SepEx controller, say 600A in the 36-84V
>> range, make this older style conversion any more efficient, or would
>> it also need a motor more specific to the job?
>
> If the old one used an SCR controller, a Curtis or other modern
> controller will be more efficient. The efficiency of the motor itself
> won't change.
>
> The main limitations of these old unit are:
>
>   - lower efficiency (reduces range by 10% or so)
>   - hard to use shaft (odd spines, no support bearing)
>   - need a lot of cooling (due to lower efficiency, no internal fan)
>   - too small for a full-size EV (only suited to very small light cars)
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[Lee Hart]

cowtown@... wrote:
> An 800A contactor and "Regen braking with down shifting" and  
> "remanufactured and modified jet fighter plane generator used as  
> motor" sounds like an EV made in the 70's that avoids using that same  
> era's more silicon-heavy controls (SCRs, Triodes, etc). Any idea how  
> smoothly a VW-with-jet-starter/generator conversion can be driven in  
> everyday use, how efficiently they run when compared to current motors  
> and PWM controllers, and what is their comparative durability?

The 1970's aircraft starter-generators are still state-of-the-art today;
DC motor technology has hardly moved. They have huge strong commutators,
class H insulation, interpoles and pole facing windings, high speed
bearings, are banded and balanced for high RPM, etc. They are excellent
for regenerative braking.

However, they were optimized to be light, not efficient. Compared to a
modern series DC traction motor, The aircraft starter-generator is about
half the weight but only 75% efficient versus 85%. They also didn't care
about noise; these things scream like a giant vacuum cleaner.

Smoothness isn't a characteristic of the motor; it's a characteristic of
the controller.

> Would a "cutting-edge' Curtis SepEx controller, say 600A in the 36-84V  
> range, make this older style conversion any more efficient, or would  
> it also need a motor more specific to the job?

If the old one used an SCR controller, a Curtis or other modern
controller will be more efficient. The efficiency of the motor itself
won't change.

The main limitations of these old unit are:

  - lower efficiency (reduces range by 10% or so)
  - hard to use shaft (odd spines, no support bearing)
  - need a lot of cooling (due to lower efficiency, no internal fan)
  - too small for a full-size EV (only suited to very small light cars)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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[Randy Eckert]

Jack and Heintz G-29 Shunt Wound DC Aircraft Generator has been located and
ordered. $179.00 plus $75 shipping.
I used to have a link to a supplus place that sold these does any one have
the link and could you post it. web searches are not turning it up .
I was thinking of useing it for a range exstiender trailer set up.with a
small ice motor.For those few times I want to take a road trip.
Thanks for any help

On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

> cowtown@... wrote:
> > An 800A contactor and "Regen braking with down shifting" and
> > "remanufactured and modified jet fighter plane generator used as
> > motor" sounds like an EV made in the 70's that avoids using that same
> > era's more silicon-heavy controls (SCRs, Triodes, etc). Any idea how
> > smoothly a VW-with-jet-starter/generator conversion can be driven in
> > everyday use, how efficiently they run when compared to current motors
> > and PWM controllers, and what is their comparative durability?
>
> The 1970's aircraft starter-generators are still state-of-the-art today;
> DC motor technology has hardly moved. They have huge strong commutators,
> class H insulation, interpoles and pole facing windings, high speed
> bearings, are banded and balanced for high RPM, etc. They are excellent
> for regenerative braking.
>
> However, they were optimized to be light, not efficient. Compared to a
> modern series DC traction motor, The aircraft starter-generator is about
> half the weight but only 75% efficient versus 85%. They also didn't care
> about noise; these things scream like a giant vacuum cleaner.
>
> Smoothness isn't a characteristic of the motor; it's a characteristic of
> the controller.
>
> > Would a "cutting-edge' Curtis SepEx controller, say 600A in the 36-84V
> > range, make this older style conversion any more efficient, or would
> > it also need a motor more specific to the job?
>
> If the old one used an SCR controller, a Curtis or other modern
> controller will be more efficient. The efficiency of the motor itself
> won't change.
>
> The main limitations of these old unit are:
>
>  - lower efficiency (reduces range by 10% or so)
>  - hard to use shaft (odd spines, no support bearing)
>  - need a lot of cooling (due to lower efficiency, no internal fan)
>  - too small for a full-size EV (only suited to very small light cars)
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[gottdi]

Peter,

Actually it is Roy Kaylor himself that engineered and produced these  
and he actually has very little left in stock. He is only wanting to  
finish selling off the last of his stock and the quality is of the  
motors and adaptors is very high. Not some cheap stuff. So what if the  
motor is old stock. They are good sound high speed motors with full  
regen abilities and motors with interpoles. The distance stated is  
stated no differently than what I have heard spoken of on this list  
with series motors. You all need to really go have a look at how some  
of the posts are stated. It give rise to all the posts asking about  
range. I for one believe his claims but that means I'd be hypermiling  
the whole time. Best for flat ground. It is an EV and he did engineer  
them and they were and are successful. Price too high? How do you  
figure that? His kits include all the parts except the battery. You  
get everything. Always did. Roy Kaylor did engineer them and I'd trust  
him more than many others. I see on the list many who want upsell you  
very high priced zilla's and warp motors. Now compared to that stuff  
Kaylors stuff is cheap cheap cheap.

Yes, I am building an EV using his stuff. I did not buy from him but  
he has been very helpful to me getting things together. He is a person  
I like talking to and he will not blast anyone or the technology used  
today. For a medium range EV his kits should prove fine. For a new  
person getting into EV's his may be perfect. Maybe not. Depends upon  
what that person wants. It is just another choice.

But please explain the pricing thing compared to the prices of the  
series stuff? Compare the quality of each as well.

Pete



On May 15, 2008, at 1:25 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:

> There range figures are very questionable.  I'd be inclined to say BS.
> 60 miles at 55mp with a 72V pack of GC batteries?
>
> This isn't like 1970's technology, it IS 1970's technology.  
> Specifically
> it's a guy that has a large stockpile of equipment that is 30 years  
> old
> and he's trying to sell it for way to much.
>
> For only about 10% more you can do a conversion that uses modern
> components and will work with a normal conversion, not a fiberglass  
> kit on
> a VW pan.
>
>> cowtown@... wrote:
>>> An 800A contactor and "Regen braking with down shifting" and
>>> "remanufactured and modified jet fighter plane generator used as
>>> motor" sounds like an EV made in the 70's that avoids using that  
>>> same
>>> era's more silicon-heavy controls (SCRs, Triodes, etc). Any idea how
>>> smoothly a VW-with-jet-starter/generator conversion can be driven in
>>> everyday use, how efficiently they run when compared to current  
>>> motors
>>> and PWM controllers, and what is their comparative durability?
>>
>> The 1970's aircraft starter-generators are still state-of-the-art  
>> today;
>> DC motor technology has hardly moved. They have huge strong  
>> commutators,
>> class H insulation, interpoles and pole facing windings, high speed
>> bearings, are banded and balanced for high RPM, etc. They are  
>> excellent
>> for regenerative braking.
>>
>> However, they were optimized to be light, not efficient. Compared  
>> to a
>> modern series DC traction motor, The aircraft starter-generator is  
>> about
>> half the weight but only 75% efficient versus 85%. They also didn't  
>> care
>> about noise; these things scream like a giant vacuum cleaner.
>>
>> Smoothness isn't a characteristic of the motor; it's a  
>> characteristic of
>> the controller.
>>
>>> Would a "cutting-edge' Curtis SepEx controller, say 600A in the  
>>> 36-84V
>>> range, make this older style conversion any more efficient, or would
>>> it also need a motor more specific to the job?
>>
>> If the old one used an SCR controller, a Curtis or other modern
>> controller will be more efficient. The efficiency of the motor itself
>> won't change.
>>
>> The main limitations of these old unit are:
>>
>>  - lower efficiency (reduces range by 10% or so)
>>  - hard to use shaft (odd spines, no support bearing)
>>  - need a lot of cooling (due to lower efficiency, no internal fan)
>>  - too small for a full-size EV (only suited to very small light  
>> cars)
>> --
>> Ring the bells that still can ring
>> Forget the perfect offering
>> There is a crack in everything
>> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,  
>> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[ampaynz1]

I've looked over the kaylor kit and if I had that kit my car would be running. The shunt motor isn't a jack heintz g-29, but with same power specs. All the surplus places that sold both motors are out of stock. I know surplus center and Groban. Here is a still working link for nostalgic purposes. http://www.groban.com/generator-lvl1.html. The kalylor kit comes with a support bearing that connects to spline shaft on the inside and on the outside the other part bolts to the flywheel. Very nicely done in converting a motor into another purpose other the airplane use. For more pics you can try looking at http://members.aol.com/BohanDesign/evkits/bearcatev/default.htm , which probably just the kaylor kit resold for a little profit. The jack heint G-29 on the other hand as sold by e-volks has given me lots of wobble trouble. Mainly because they quit supporting it. Though it did launch their business. The motor has a large splined hollow shaft that comes out of the motor a little bit. Then there is a another inner shaft that goes inside the hollow shaft. The bearing on the motor is in the rear of the motor. This is the end that is covered by a flange for cooling. The inner shaft is made so that it can only go into inner shaft one way. and then will mate internally. It has grooves on the inner and outer shaft so that it has to be rotated just right to go all the way in. Also, on the outside of the inner shaft there is a groove all the way around it and this is where a rubber boot (bushing) goes. This bushing is slightly larger then then inner shaft and then the drive piece slides from rear of inner shaft all the way to this rubber boot. Since this drive part is smaller then the boot it won't slide off the inner shaft. The whole apparatus is slid back into the motor. Finally, the lock nut is tightened in the rear of the motor and this tightens the front of the motor where the coupler would be. On my motor the inner shaft wobbles in the rear of the motor. On the front of the motor the outer shaft is fine and does not wobble. However, then inner shaft does wobble inside the hollow outer shaft. A solution done by evolks was to make a mold of the rubber bushing, then pour molten brass and duplicate it. Next it was sliced in two and this replaced the rubber bushing. E-volks doesn't have anymore, so I'll have to make this part myself. I am also thinking about drilling three set screws and putting red loctite around the outer splined shaft and coupler. Since space is an issue a tool might be able to reach to tighten set scews, but sure it can be done. Plus, the flywheel will need to be lightened and balanced.

cowtown wrote:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/car/674424757.html

An 800A contactor and "Regen braking with down shifting" and  
"remanufactured and modified jet fighter plane generator used as  
motor" sounds like an EV made in the 70's that avoids using that same  
era's more silicon-heavy controls (SCRs, Triodes, etc). Any idea how  
smoothly a VW-with-jet-starter/generator conversion can be driven in  
everyday use, how efficiently they run when compared to current motors  
and PWM controllers, and what is their comparative durability?

Would a "cutting-edge' Curtis SepEx controller, say 600A in the 36-84V  
range, make this older style conversion any more efficient, or would  
it also need a motor more specific to the job?





_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[gottdi]

Actually the support bearing is two large bearings for support. The  
motor in the adaptor spins very smoothly and in the vehicle it spins  
smoothly. Built very solid. More solid than needed. You are correct  
that it is not a Jack Heintz but then again this kit was designed to  
use the available generator/starter motors and they all bolt right up  
and all have the same kind of connections to wire it up.


Pete


On May 15, 2008, at 2:17 PM, ampaynz1 wrote:

> The kalylor kit comes
> with a support bearing that connects to spline shaft on the inside  
> and on
> the outside the other part bolts to the flywheel. Very nicely done in
> converting a motor into another purpose other the airplane use.

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