EOS RAW files and their future

[Valencic Miha]

Guys,

I have some different RAW format files (D30, 10D, 300D and 30D). When I
want the best quality or when the lighting is tricky, I tend to use RAW
for capturing images.

Lately, I started to wonder how will I open my old (say D30) raw files a
couple of years from now. The format is not the same as the new RAW
files, so I can not count that this will be supported forever. For
instance, when the new OS comes out (like MS Vista), I have no guarantee
that Canon will release a library that will read the "old" formats. So,
I am asking you guys, what do you do? I for one, have not converted the
RAW files to open-format "digital negatives". I have, however, created
jpeg copies.

The conversion process itself is child simple (since I use DAM software
I can batch convert them anytime I want). The question is: is there a
format, equivalent to RAW, which stores all the details of the RAW (so
you can apply lossless whitebalance settings afterwards, for instance)?
In other words, is there an "open" format available, that will store as
much information as the canon CRW/CR2 file stores? Or will I loose
something?  (for instance, in 8bit jpeg files, one looses 4 bits per
channel (dynamic range), after-the-fact white balacing w/o loss of
quality and probably then some) What will I loose?

Is Adobe DNG the way to go? 16bit TIFF (here you lose something if you
change w/b)? What do you guys do?

Thanks for your thoughts....

Miha
 
 
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[Huber, Richard]

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-eos@... [mailto:owner-eos@...] On Behalf Of Valencic
Miha
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 10:16 AM
To: eos@...
Subject: EOS RAW files and their future

Guys,

I have some different RAW format files (D30, 10D, 300D and 30D). When I
want the best quality or when the lighting is tricky, I tend to use RAW
for capturing images.

Lately, I started to wonder how will I open my old (say D30) raw files a
couple of years from now. The format is not the same as the new RAW
files, so I can not count that this will be supported forever. For
instance, when the new OS comes out (like MS Vista), I have no guarantee
that Canon will release a library that will read the "old" formats. So,
I am asking you guys, what do you do? I for one, have not converted the
RAW files to open-format "digital negatives". I have, however, created
jpeg copies.

The conversion process itself is child simple (since I use DAM software
I can batch convert them anytime I want). The question is: is there a
format, equivalent to RAW, which stores all the details of the RAW (so
you can apply lossless whitebalance settings afterwards, for instance)?
In other words, is there an "open" format available, that will store as
much information as the canon CRW/CR2 file stores? Or will I loose
something?  (for instance, in 8bit jpeg files, one looses 4 bits per
channel (dynamic range), after-the-fact white balacing w/o loss of
quality and probably then some) What will I loose?

Is Adobe DNG the way to go? 16bit TIFF (here you lose something if you
change w/b)? What do you guys do?

Thanks for your thoughts....

Miha
-------------------------------------------

The TIFF format is lossless, though the huge change in file size may
become an issue down the line. Converting from RAW to TIFF can cause a
6X or higher jump in file size, especially if you are using 16 bit. 10D
RAW files start out at 6MB and jump to 36MB on a straight RAW to 16-bit
TIFF conversion. I haven't even tried to save files as a TIFF for the 5D
yet...I don't have the hard drive space for it...

RH
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[WJM]

On 11 Dec 2006 at 19:16, Valencic Miha wrote:

> Guys,
>
> I have some different RAW format files (D30, 10D, 300D and 30D). When I
> want the best quality or when the lighting is tricky, I tend to use RAW
> for capturing images.
>
> Lately, I started to wonder how will I open my old (say D30) raw files a
> couple of years from now. The format is not the same as the new RAW
> files, so I can not count that this will be supported forever. For
> instance, when the new OS comes out (like MS Vista), I have no guarantee
> that Canon will release a library that will read the "old" formats.

To answer at least the question/doubt whether or not there might be
future support for old data formats:
Try finding a conversion tool in modern image-software that can
handle the first-generation Canon/Kodak .tif files (DCS-1/3/5,
possibly also the second generation D2000/6000 annex DCS-520/560).
(not even sure whether there was any other software at that time that
could read these files....anyone know for sure?)



--                
Bye,

Willem-Jan Markerink

      The desire to understand
is sometimes far less intelligent than
     the inability to understand

<w.j.markerink@...>
[note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!]

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[Tapani Tarvainen-3]

On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 08:17:09PM +0100, Willem-Jan Markerink (w.j.markerink@...) wrote:

> On 11 Dec 2006 at 19:16, Valencic Miha wrote:

> > I have some different RAW format files (D30, 10D, 300D and 30D)

> > Lately, I started to wonder how will I open my old (say D30) raw
> > files a couple of years from now.

I save a copy of dcraw.c on every CD/DVD of raw photos.
I'm pretty sure C compilers will be around long enough
for my photo needs.

> To answer at least the question/doubt whether or not there might be
> future support for old data formats:
> Try finding a conversion tool in modern image-software that can
> handle the first-generation Canon/Kodak .tif files (DCS-1/3/5,
> possibly also the second generation D2000/6000 annex DCS-520/560).

DCS-1/3/5 may indeed be a problem, but dcraw can handle
Kodak DCS-520 & -560 and Canon D2000 - and quite a few
other software use dcraw as their raw processing engine
and thus inherit its capabilities.

--
Tapani Tarvainen
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[Valencic Miha]

Willem and Rick, you are both to the point. I just did a test: 8,5 MB
CR2 file from 30D becomes 8MB DNG file,
16,5MB DNG file with embedded original, a whopping 32 MB linear DNG, and
~40MB linear DNG with embedded original RAW file. Yikes.

And I still don't know whether I have the same "flexibility" with DNG as
I do with RAW. Linear seems to have more info (at least the full bits
per pixel I hope), but what about white balance & stuff?

So you two, what do you do? Rick, I take it you don't "convert". What
about you, Willem?

Miha

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-eos@... [mailto:owner-eos@...] On Behalf Of
> Willem-Jan Markerink
> Sent: 11. december 2006 20:17
> To: eos@...
> Subject: Re: EOS RAW files and their future
> (not even sure whether there was any other software at that
> time that could read these files....anyone know for sure?)
>
 
 
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[Richard Jones-5]

On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 07:16:09PM +0100, Valencic Miha wrote:
> Guys,
>
> I have some different RAW format files (D30, 10D, 300D and 30D). When I
> want the best quality or when the lighting is tricky, I tend to use RAW
> for capturing images.

I think someone posted about this recently-ish, or maybe it was on
another list. Aynyway, what they do is to include the a copy for source
code for dcraw on each CD or DVD they burn. The idea being that C source
code the best candidate for being future proof and any good programmer
will be able to get the code up and running for whatever the future of
image formats is holds.

It's not a perfect solution (it requires a C programmer to start with),
but the best of a bad bunch.

While we're on the subject, does anyone use JPEG-2000? It's meant to be
very clever, but doesn't look like it's going to become the standard any
time soon.

Cheers,

R


--
Richard Jones
MSN: msn.co.uk@...
Y!M: rwkjones
http://www.jonze.com
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[Huber, Richard]

I have converted a few thousand 10D files over the years to a TIFF/JPG
mix depending on the photo. All the 10D files added to the 2.5-3k
scanned film files and now adding in the 5D files I am re-thinking the
process, or at least my storage medium.

For the 10D I have saved the RAW file, a converted 16-bit TIFF file and
any finished ready-to-print jpg/psd files in a simple date driven folder
system. I have a 1500GB disk array at home to store nothing but images
plus another terabyte each on my primary and secondary computers, but it
is all starting to get full and I have yet to convert any 5D files. My
back-up is a bunch of folders full of RW-DVDs with the same files from
the disk array.

After the holidays I will be working on the backlog of 5D files, going
through and re-vetting all the old files, and I may be getting another
terabyte or 4 of disk space to help with the shrinking storage issue. I
just hope Santa will pull through this year and kick in a drive or two.
:)

Rick H.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-eos@... [mailto:owner-eos@...] On Behalf Of Valencic
Miha
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 12:11 PM
To: eos@...
Subject: RE: EOS RAW files and their future

Willem and Rick, you are both to the point. I just did a test: 8,5 MB
CR2 file from 30D becomes 8MB DNG file,
16,5MB DNG file with embedded original, a whopping 32 MB linear DNG, and
~40MB linear DNG with embedded original RAW file. Yikes.

And I still don't know whether I have the same "flexibility" with DNG as
I do with RAW. Linear seems to have more info (at least the full bits
per pixel I hope), but what about white balance & stuff?

So you two, what do you do? Rick, I take it you don't "convert". What
about you, Willem?

Miha

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-eos@... [mailto:owner-eos@...] On Behalf Of
> Willem-Jan Markerink
> Sent: 11. december 2006 20:17
> To: eos@...
> Subject: Re: EOS RAW files and their future
> (not even sure whether there was any other software at that
> time that could read these files....anyone know for sure?)
>
 
 

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[Valencic Miha]

Tapani, that is a clever hint. Thank you. I remeber now that you wrote
about this some time ago. I will do the same, thank you. And this will
certainly help me, since I am a developer, so C is no problem. In that
case, I don't have to really worry. I will just create jpeg files to go
with the RAW files (for quick viewing, web publishing etc).

Miha


ps: [totally off-topic] I use IMatch for DAM (digital asset management)
and it is a very fine and capable program, which does the RAW conversion
as well (using the Canon SDK). For RAW processing I use RSE, and now
increasingly Lightroom.

> -----Original Message-----
>
> I save a copy of dcraw.c on every CD/DVD of raw photos.
> I'm pretty sure C compilers will be around long enough for my
> photo needs.
>
 
 
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[cjeastwd]

Hi

>
> I have some different RAW format files (D30, 10D, 300D and 30D). When I
> want the best quality or when the lighting is tricky, I tend to use RAW
> for capturing images.
>
> Lately, I started to wonder how will I open my old (say D30) raw files a
> couple of years from now. The format is not the same as the new RAW
> files, so I can not count that this will be supported forever. For
> instance, when the new OS comes out (like MS Vista), I have no guarantee
> that Canon will release a library that will read the "old" formats.

your could perhaps try to convert all now to the Adobe DNG format, as I
understand it, it will support the lossless storage of all the data
contained in the RAW formats.

I suspect that it'll transcend platforms, and while it may require
licencing, it'll be perhaps as persistant as Adobe is.
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[cjeastwd]

Hi


>Willem and Rick, you are both to the point. I just did a test: 8,5 MB
>CR2 file from 30D becomes 8MB DNG file,
>16,5MB DNG file with embedded original, a whopping 32 MB linear DNG, and
>~40MB linear DNG with embedded original RAW file. Yikes.
>

ahha, I missed from your post that you were meaning DNG when you said
'digital negative'


>And I still don't know whether I have the same "flexibility" with DNG as
>I do with RAW. Linear seems to have more info (at least the full bits

you do ... it keeps everything

I use dng, as I have a 20D and a CP 5000 that both make raw

I DO not embedd the original file

have you done any web searching??

have you found this page?

http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/safety.htm#completeness
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[Valencic Miha]

> have you done any web searching??

I have, but nothing really useful.
 
> have you found this page?
>
> http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/safety.htm#completeness

No. And may I say this is an excellent resource. Thanks! I will also
browse through the Adobe forums, mentioned on this page. For others:
apparently, the case is this: [executive summary :)]

If your camera's RAW format is fully supported by DNG Converter, you
don't loose a thing by converting to DNG. If it is not, you can loose
some of the metadata, and (probably?) some of the image data when the
image is not written in a form that ACR understands... The list of
supported cameras:
http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cameraraw.html

Miha
 
 
SAMO NASLOVNIKU! / ONLY FOR THE INTENDED RECIPIENT!

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