E-tek vs Perm PMG

[Janet Plato-2]

Guys,

  I am trying to determine the best motor for a small scooter.
I am leaning towards doing a proof of concept with a 24V 600W
like the ones at cloud electric, and then maybe migrating to
something larger like a Perm PMG-080 or Mars E-Tek.  I have a
few questions.

  Are there design formulas that can give someone an idea of
how a motor will perform?  For example, if I have a X pound
scooter (with rider and all) producing Y ft-lb of torque at
the wheel edge, how fast will it accelerate on level ground
and how fast, for example, on a M% grade.  How would I
determine the top speed?  Although I can calculate the change
in torque from motor shaft to tire edge with relatively straight
forward math, are there reasonable ways to estimate losses in the
drive train?  Can I just apply a blanket N% loss for drive
train and say that is good enough?  I lack access to the tools
to cut my own gears, so I am likely to start with chain drive to
the test vehicle, and then later move to something like a single
90 degree spline gear and perhaps later to one of the bicycle
grade CVTs (continuous variable transmission).

  How do folks feel about brushed versus brushless?  It seems brushed
motors are a lot cheaper, but need regularly examinations and replacement
every few hundred hours.  Using this back and forth for work means
1-2 hours a day, and that means every few months replacing the brushes.
For a test design, I will likely consider a $100 motor an expendable
part of the learning process.  For a real design, I want to make it last.

Janet


     


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[Neon John]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:27:51 -0700 (PDT), Janet Plato <techgrrl2003@...>
wrote:


>  How do folks feel about brushed versus brushless?  It seems brushed
>motors are a lot cheaper, but need regularly examinations and replacement
>every few hundred hours.  Using this back and forth for work means
>1-2 hours a day, and that means every few months replacing the brushes.
>For a test design, I will likely consider a $100 motor an expendable
>part of the learning process.  For a real design, I want to make it last.

I've had my GoBig scooter for about 6 years now.  It's on its 3rd rear tire,
second disc rotor, probably 10th set of brake pads, second set of batteries...
And the same set of brushes.  That simply isn't an issue.

Are you talking about a stand-on scooter or a Vespa-type street-legal one?  If
you're talking about a stand-on scooter then it's going to be a trick to get
an hour's battery life.  It'll be an equally significant trick to actually
ride the thing for an hour.

If this is your first experience with an electric scooter then I strongly
suggest you try to buy a used commercially made one.  Get some experience and
then build.  You'll save a lot of money and a lot of ripped-out hair that way!

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I didn't claw my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables!


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[matt-255]

Hi Janet,

Whats the rationale behind this project?
Are you wanting to manufacture these things? Or do you just want one for
yourself?
If you jjust want one for yourself, you are probably better off buying an
already manufactured electric bike.

The manufactured bikes use 3-phase AC motors built into the back wheel.

Have a look on the www.visforvoltage.org forums to see what other people ar
riding.
I personally am riding an emax, continuous power 1500w (actually I run it at
2500w cont, 4000w peak, but its cold here) and im getting max speed
60-70kmh, 0-60kmh in 6-7secs.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Janet Plato
Sent: Wednesday, 23 July 2008 11:28 PM
To: ev@...
Subject: [EVDL] E-tek vs Perm PMG

Guys,

  I am trying to determine the best motor for a small scooter.
I am leaning towards doing a proof of concept with a 24V 600W like the ones
at cloud electric, and then maybe migrating to something larger like a Perm
PMG-080 or Mars E-Tek.  I have a few questions.

  Are there design formulas that can give someone an idea of how a motor
will perform?  For example, if I have a X pound scooter (with rider and all)
producing Y ft-lb of torque at the wheel edge, how fast will it accelerate
on level ground and how fast, for example, on a M% grade.  How would I
determine the top speed?  Although I can calculate the change in torque from
motor shaft to tire edge with relatively straight forward math, are there
reasonable ways to estimate losses in the drive train?  Can I just apply a
blanket N% loss for drive train and say that is good enough?  I lack access
to the tools to cut my own gears, so I am likely to start with chain drive
to the test vehicle, and then later move to something like a single 90
degree spline gear and perhaps later to one of the bicycle grade CVTs
(continuous variable transmission).

  How do folks feel about brushed versus brushless?  It seems brushed motors
are a lot cheaper, but need regularly examinations and replacement every few
hundred hours.  Using this back and forth for work means
1-2 hours a day, and that means every few months replacing the brushes.
For a test design, I will likely consider a $100 motor an expendable part of
the learning process.  For a real design, I want to make it last.

Janet


     


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2:01 PM


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[Janet Plato-2]

Matt,

  These projects are purely for my own education and entertainment.
I love to learn new things and to build things.  Experience has
taught me that as a rule of thumb, making something myself is
much more expensive than buying it, not counting the labor but
including prototyping, testing and all the things you lose in false
starts and learning curves.  But sometimes the satisfaction of having
made it oneself is a reward unto itself.

  Although a small scooter is not really what I want, it seems
like a relatively inexpensive way to experiment with an EV, and
see what sort of performance one can get with existing technology.
Also, a 25 MPH crash on a small steel frame scooter is not likely
to be serious, compared to say my incorrectly laid up carbon fiber
body part coming apart on the freeway at 75MPH.

  I suspect I can build a 1HP scooter for under $2K using new parts,
but I'd rather not determine empirically what it's performance
would be.   With some basic engineering, I can estimate whether what
is feasible is useful to me.  I am at the very very early part of
the learning curve, just seeing what others do and deciding if I
want to follow.

Thanks for your time,

Janet

--- On Wed, 7/23/08, matt <mc.lacey@...> wrote:

> From: matt <mc.lacey@...>
> Subject: RE: [EVDL] E-tek vs Perm PMG
> To: techgrrl2003@..., "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@...>
> Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 11:53 AM
> Hi Janet,
>
> Whats the rationale behind this project?
> Are you wanting to manufacture these things? Or do you just
> want one for
> yourself?
> If you jjust want one for yourself, you are probably better
> off buying an
> already manufactured electric bike.
>
> The manufactured bikes use 3-phase AC motors built into the
> back wheel.
>
> Have a look on the www.visforvoltage.org forums to see what
> other people ar
> riding.
> I personally am riding an emax, continuous power 1500w
> (actually I run it at
> 2500w cont, 4000w peak, but its cold here) and im getting
> max speed
> 60-70kmh, 0-60kmh in 6-7secs.
>
> Matt
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@...
> [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
> Of Janet Plato
> Sent: Wednesday, 23 July 2008 11:28 PM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: [EVDL] E-tek vs Perm PMG
>
> Guys,
>
>   I am trying to determine the best motor for a small
> scooter.
> I am leaning towards doing a proof of concept with a 24V
> 600W like the ones
> at cloud electric, and then maybe migrating to something
> larger like a Perm
> PMG-080 or Mars E-Tek.  I have a few questions.
>
>   Are there design formulas that can give someone an idea
> of how a motor
> will perform?  For example, if I have a X pound scooter
> (with rider and all)
> producing Y ft-lb of torque at the wheel edge, how fast
> will it accelerate
> on level ground and how fast, for example, on a M% grade.
> How would I
> determine the top speed?  Although I can calculate the
> change in torque from
> motor shaft to tire edge with relatively straight forward
> math, are there
> reasonable ways to estimate losses in the drive train?  Can
> I just apply a
> blanket N% loss for drive train and say that is good
> enough?  I lack access
> to the tools to cut my own gears, so I am likely to start
> with chain drive
> to the test vehicle, and then later move to something like
> a single 90
> degree spline gear and perhaps later to one of the bicycle
> grade CVTs
> (continuous variable transmission).
>
>   How do folks feel about brushed versus brushless?  It
> seems brushed motors
> are a lot cheaper, but need regularly examinations and
> replacement every few
> hundred hours.  Using this back and forth for work means
> 1-2 hours a day, and that means every few months replacing
> the brushes.
> For a test design, I will likely consider a $100 motor an
> expendable part of
> the learning process.  For a real design, I want to make it
> last.
>
> Janet
>
>
>      
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/ For
> subscription
> options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.5.2/1562 - Release
> Date: 19/07/2008
> 2:01 PM

     


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[Janet Plato-2]

John,

  Thanks for replying.  My current ill-formed plan is to gather
data and make a plan.  What I want is likely not feasible with
current technology, so I am heading towards buying and building
things for experience' sake.  Perhaps a 24V 9AH battery, a 24V
600W motor, and making first an electric skateboard, and then
an electric scooter like a mini-bike or vespa.  Such a device
would be underpowered, and actually only could run for 5-10
minutes, just long enough to gather test data.  I expect it
would cost around $1,000 when finished.

  The experience would prove useful for building a more expensive
device when technology improves.

  Anyway, right now the point is purely intellectual, and I have
no intention of building anything, only engineering something and
then determining what it would cost to build and how I would expect
it to perform.

Thanks for your time,

Janet


     


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[Janet Plato-2]

Thanks John,

  I've done a moderate google search of the market, although I was
unaware of the Schwinn S-1000, most of the e-bikes I saw were
300-500W add-ons for pedal bikes (either a motor near the wheel
or a motor built into the seat post), hub motors like the wilderness,
a 750W hub motor (I forget the name) that could be ran at
1500W for a bit and skate-board-with-a-stick designs like you
mentioned but with motors too small for an adult.  And of course,
mini-bikes like the jackal and maxi-scooters like the vectrix.

  I have a motorcycle license and tens of thousands of miles of
experience, so the moped limitation on speed/power is a non-issue
for me in that regard, but maxi-scooters need maxi-power.

  What I'd really like is something along the lines of the jackal
with NiMH or Li, a bit more battery capacity and a bit less motor.
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/jackal_performance.htm

  The jackal is around $4K, and uses 4x12V 20AH VRLA.  NiMH
is hard to get above 13AH, you end up building strings and
charging them is tedious.  The Nilar batteries seem interesting
but they are 24V/9AH NiMH for $250:
  http://nilar.com/index.php?pageID=33

Link to buy is here, stating $250 price:
  http://www.pluginconversions.com/phevs1.html

  So doubling the Jackal's battery load means 8 of these for $2,000
in 4 parallel clusters of 2 series batteries.  Plugging in 48V,
36AH capacity means a modest 864 Watts for an hour at 50% DOD, and
maybe 1,728 Watts, about 2.35 HP, very rarely if you want to push
them a bit to climb an occasional hill.

  Sure, the batteries themselves can provide obscene amounts of power,
upwards of 18C, but as I understand it, if I expect to get anywhere
near 4.5AH from a 9AH battery at 50% DOD I need to be very careful
not to exceed 2C and should try to keep it around 1C.  At least for
planning/engineering purposes this seems prudent.

  The batteries weigh 3.9Kg (about 70lbs for 8) and for volume
occupy 279mm x 129mm x 55mm x 8 batteries, call it 558x258x110
ignoring mechanical requirements to hold them in place, or
about 22" x 11" x 5", in a 2x2x2 battery cube.

  So this all seems doable, but $5,700 plus some labor to replace
the default VRLA with Nilar NiMH seems kind of steep without
having ever experiencing what 2.35HP feels like, or 1HP cruising.
So it seemed like buying one $250 battery (re-usable later) and a
$100 motor (throw away cost of engineering) seemed like a low cost
way to enter the market and see what it felt like.  Then after
testing, buy a $500 motor and test it's performance, and if it
felt usable, buy the jackal frame kit and have at it with the smaller
motor (say 3-4HP) that I already purchased.

  I was reluctant to get specific on what I was thinking, because
we could discuss the specifics forever, and to be blunt, I am a long
way from deciding this is what I want, it just seems close to what
I think I might want based on a limited amount of pondering.
I really want to keep my options open at this stage of the
game.  There are many choices, and I don't want to settle on a
design without having thought through the options.

  So anyway, it sounds like you think brushed motors will be just
fine.  Any comments folks have on this current not-quite-a-plan
would be most welcome.

Cheers,

Janet

--- On Wed, 7/23/08, Neon John <jgd@...> wrote:

> From: Neon John <jgd@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] E-tek vs Perm PMG
> To: techgrrl2003@...
> Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2008, 3:00 PM
> If you want to experiment and gather data then you might
> want to start with a
> commercially made unit to learn what is available.
> Sam's club sells this one
>
> http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=390911
>
> 900 watt motor, 24 volts, 5-8 mile range.
>
> This one is much better  36 volts, 1kW motor, rear
> suspension
>
> http://urbanscooters.com/P/Electric-Scooters/schwinn/Schwinn-S-1000-Stealth-Scooter.html
>
> Sam's Club and Target usually carry this one but they
> seem to be out of stock
> now.
>
> I've been using a stand-up e-scooter for daily
> transportation since about
> 2001.  I'm 6'7"/285 lbs.  I started out with a
> Currie (who makes the Schwinn
> machines) Phantom Flyer with a screaming 300 watt motor.  I
> now ride a GoBig
> scooter
>
> http://www.neon-john.com/EV/RedProd102.jpg
>
> Biggest and baddest scooter made.  Unfortunately the
> company seems to have
> gone out of business.  I've had mine about 6 years and
> have put many thousands
> of miles on it.  I have a little home-made trailer that I
> tow behind it to
> carry cargo and/or range extending batteries.  This scooter
> is capable of 50
> mph and so can keep up with traffic.
>
> Even with its suspension and fat tires, 10 miles on this
> thing is grueling.
> That's all I'd want to do in a day.  A Vespa-style
> or light motorcycle style
> scooter is much more satisfactory for longer distances.
> They're available
> with up to about a 20 mile range at a cost of several
> thousand dollars.
>
> To get the kind of range you want without mid-trip
> charging, you're going to
> have to use lithium batteries.  In other words, some
> serious money.  I can
> point you toward some suitable batteries if you're
> interested.
>
> Don't expect any major technology breakthroughs.
> Motors and controllers are
> about as good as they're going to get, particularly
> BLDC and AC induction
> motors.  there will be evolutionary improvements in lithium
> chemistry but
> don't expect orders of magnitude improvements.  Range
> costs money, especially
> at even surface street speeds.
>
> I'm currently working on the design of a Corbin
> Sparrow-like trike that will
> achieve a 120 to 150 mile range.  That's the range that
> I have to have to
> travel from my cabin in the mountains to the closest stores
> and back again.
> Lithiums are out of my price range so this will probably
> end up being a
> plug-in hybrid.
>
> Hope this helps,
> John
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:23:29 -0700 (PDT), Janet Plato
> <techgrrl2003@...>
> wrote:
>
> >John,
> >
> >  Thanks for replying.  My current ill-formed plan is
> to gather
> >data and make a plan.  What I want is likely not
> feasible with
> >current technology, so I am heading towards buying and
> building
> >things for experience' sake.  Perhaps a 24V 9AH
> battery, a 24V
> >600W motor, and making first an electric skateboard,
> and then
> >an electric scooter like a mini-bike or vespa.  Such a
> device
> >would be underpowered, and actually only could run for
> 5-10
> >minutes, just long enough to gather test data.  I
> expect it
> >would cost around $1,000 when finished.
> >
> >  The experience would prove useful for building a more
> expensive
> >device when technology improves.
> >
> >  Anyway, right now the point is purely intellectual,
> and I have
> >no intention of building anything, only engineering
> something and
> >then determining what it would cost to build and how I
> would expect
> >it to perform.
> >
> >Thanks for your time,
> >
> >Janet
> >
> >
> >      
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the
> net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> Nuke the Whales!

     


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[Alan Brinkman]

Janet,

What do you think about the ZERO motorcycle?  A little pricey at $7,450.
2kWh of lithium.  A replacement battery pack that plugs in quickly is
$2,950.  A second charger - $449.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-x.php Not street legal, but
possible?

I am collecting parts for a motorcycle, a little on the heavier side.
6.7 inch series DC motor etc...  Project is moving slowly due to budget
constraints.  (read - I am president of the local cheap skates club,
founding member).

However, I did put a small motor on my bicycle, and a 36 volt DeWalt
tool battery.  Look at E-bay item number 260263757429 for the Kollmorgan
motor, it has a controller inside.  Fun!

Alan

-----Original Message-----
(snip)
  I have a motorcycle license and tens of thousands of miles of
experience, so the moped limitation on speed/power is a non-issue
for me in that regard, but maxi-scooters need maxi-power.

  What I'd really like is something along the lines of the jackal
with NiMH or Li, a bit more battery capacity and a bit less motor.
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/jackal_performance.htm

  The jackal is around $4K, and uses 4x12V 20AH VRLA.  NiMH
is hard to get above 13AH, you end up building strings and
charging them is tedious.  The Nilar batteries seem interesting
but they are 24V/9AH NiMH for $250:
  http://nilar.com/index.php?pageID=33

Link to buy is here, stating $250 price:
  http://www.pluginconversions.com/phevs1.html

  So doubling the Jackal's battery load means 8 of these for $2,000
in 4 parallel clusters of 2 series batteries.  Plugging in 48V,
36AH capacity means a modest 864 Watts for an hour at 50% DOD, and
maybe 1,728 Watts, about 2.35 HP, very rarely if you want to push
them a bit to climb an occasional hill.
(snip)
Janet



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[Peter VanDerWal]

> I need to find links to mid size motors, I can find lots of
> 350-650W scooter motors, and things like the Perm PMG-80, PMG-132 and
> ETek, which are too large.  I'd like to find something that can
> make 1-3HP continuous and 3-8HP peak witgh 24-48V.

I think the larger Crystalyte hub motors can do this, the 5300 series.
They are fairly cheap, and reasonably efficient.

You might want to check with these folks to be sure:
http://www.ebike.ca/store/
They've done a bunch of experimenting with these and should have a good
idea of what they are capable of.



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[Janet Plato-2]

Alan,

Thanks for replying, my email client ate my longer reply,
so this is a shorter version.

> Janet,
>
> What do you think about the ZERO motorcycle?  A little pricey at
> $7,450.  2kWh of lithium.  A replacement battery pack that plugs
> in quickly is $2,950.  A second charger - $449.
>  http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-x.php
> Not street legal, but possible?

  The zero-x is nice, but not street legal.  I need a commuter
vehicle.  It should be possible to add signals though, although at
$7.5K this is more than I am willing to spend.  Enertia make a
nice machine at $15K for 35-40 mile range, but also larger.
I need to find links to mid size motors, I can find lots of
350-650W scooter motors, and things like the Perm PMG-80, PMG-132 and
ETek, which are too large.  I'd like to find something that can
make 1-3HP continuous and 3-8HP peak witgh 24-48V.  I'd consider
buying the zero-x frame but they do not sell frames, and even
batteries are only available to customers.

  Oh, and I managed to dig up some high school physics, so with
a little bit of assumption and some calculus I think I can start
determining what cost in energy I will pay for the performance I
want.  Does anyone have links to estimate values of rolling
resistance, coefficient of drag and such for commercial motorcycles.

I appreciate the links, they give me ideas,

Janet


     


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[Marty Mercer]

Janet, here's another motorcycle start up in case you haven't come across
this one.. This might be more in line with your ideas. Its more pricey than
the Zero, but street legal.

http://www.enertiabike.com/

On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Janet Plato <techgrrl2003@...>
wrote:

> Alan,
>
> Thanks for replying, my email client ate my longer reply,
> so this is a shorter version.
>
> > Janet,
> >
> > What do you think about the ZERO motorcycle?  A little pricey at
> > $7,450.  2kWh of lithium.  A replacement battery pack that plugs
> > in quickly is $2,950.  A second charger - $449.
> >  http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-x.php
> > Not street legal, but possible?
>
>  The zero-x is nice, but not street legal.  I need a commuter
> vehicle.  It should be possible to add signals though, although at
> $7.5K this is more than I am willing to spend.  Enertia make a
> nice machine at $15K for 35-40 mile range, but also larger.
> I need to find links to mid size motors, I can find lots of
> 350-650W scooter motors, and things like the Perm PMG-80, PMG-132 and
> ETek, which are too large.  I'd like to find something that can
> make 1-3HP continuous and 3-8HP peak witgh 24-48V.  I'd consider
> buying the zero-x frame but they do not sell frames, and even
> batteries are only available to customers.
>
>  Oh, and I managed to dig up some high school physics, so with
> a little bit of assumption and some calculus I think I can start
> determining what cost in energy I will pay for the performance I
> want.  Does anyone have links to estimate values of rolling
> resistance, coefficient of drag and such for commercial motorcycles.
>
> I appreciate the links, they give me ideas,
>
> Janet
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

--
Marty Mercer
Sacramento, CA

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[Jon Glauser-2]

> I'd like to find something that can
> make 1-3HP continuous and 3-8HP peak witgh 24-48V.

Sounds like a golf cart motor to me!

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555


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[gregj888]

Janet,

Another option might be something like the BugE.  Bigger than a bike or scooter but smaller than a car.

I've got a Mars BLDC (Etek like) motor on mine with a wheel motor on the way.  It's still in build, but I may get a chance to try it in the cul-de-sac this week end.  Right now I have no data or experience to talk about, just a couple of pictures on the BugE-list page-
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/BugE_list/

The BugE is not the end-all but has some very nice features.  It's small and light enough to make a great test/learning platform.  For instance the wheel motor (shipped yesterday :-).  A bigger vehicle would need at least two, with controllers, and likely four.  Changing from 48v to 72v means a change from 4 to  6 AGM batteries and $300.

The stock setup cost $5500 to $6500 depending on the normal stuff.  Rated at 30 mile and a top speed of 50mph isn't bad.  

With a higher efficiency motor, regenerative breaking, 5%-10% more power in the battery pack I hope to get the range in the high 30s.  If you fill the battery compartment with LiFePO4 batteries you should be at 50 plus... (space becomes the limit)

Greg

[Janet Plato-2]

> I think the larger Crystalyte hub motors can do this, the
> 5300 series.  They are fairly cheap, and reasonably efficient.
>
> You might want to check with these folks to be sure:
> http://www.ebike.ca/store/
>  They've done a bunch of experimenting with these and should
> have a good idea of what they are capable of.

I'll look this over later, thanks.  It seems like they do not
provide much by way of motor data, they give you speed in KPH
as a function of voltage and say torque is a non issue.  They
would probably work for a bicycle, but it would be nice if they
gave values for power consumption, torque, HP and the like.  Perhaps
I can find that data on the web, and then buy from them if it seems
useful.

Cheers,

Janet


     


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[Alan Brinkman]

Janet,

Some people have reported that their Etek motors get too hot under load,
or that they wear out brushes quickly under load.  If you do not find a
more suitable smaller motor, would the Etek work?  It is 20.8 pounds, 12
to 48 volts, and is listed as 6 HP continuous and 20 peak, but that is
likely at the higher voltage.  One seller on E-bay that has worked on
golf carts with the Etek says they are about 3.5 HP "consistent" and
12-14 peak HP.  This seller has a used Etek on E-bay, but it is the type
that bolts to a golf cart's rear axle.  I wonder if this motor has a
bearing in each end, or does it use the input shaft of the rear axle for
support like other golf cart motors do?  Anyway, here is the E-bay item
number 330255461831    Dale Henderson of this list has two Etek motors
on his chopper style motorcycle, as he was able to get one hot on his
first motorcycle.  http://www.evalbum.com/1179 

Alan

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Janet Plato
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 11:00 AM
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] E-tek vs Perm PMG

Alan,

Thanks for replying, my email client ate my longer reply,
so this is a shorter version.

> Janet,
>
> What do you think about the ZERO motorcycle?  A little pricey at
> $7,450.  2kWh of lithium.  A replacement battery pack that plugs
> in quickly is $2,950.  A second charger - $449.
>  http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-x.php
> Not street legal, but possible?

  The zero-x is nice, but not street legal.  I need a commuter
vehicle.  It should be possible to add signals though, although at
$7.5K this is more than I am willing to spend.  Enertia make a
nice machine at $15K for 35-40 mile range, but also larger.
I need to find links to mid size motors, I can find lots of
350-650W scooter motors, and things like the Perm PMG-80, PMG-132 and
ETek, which are too large.  I'd like to find something that can
make 1-3HP continuous and 3-8HP peak witgh 24-48V.  I'd consider
buying the zero-x frame but they do not sell frames, and even
batteries are only available to customers.

  Oh, and I managed to dig up some high school physics, so with
a little bit of assumption and some calculus I think I can start
determining what cost in energy I will pay for the performance I
want.  Does anyone have links to estimate values of rolling
resistance, coefficient of drag and such for commercial motorcycles.

I appreciate the links, they give me ideas,

Janet


     


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_______________________________________________
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[dale henderson-2]

i would love to offer more info, but i've had difficulty getting tags for my custom build, the few rides i've had have been great!

harry

Albuquerque, NM
current bike:  http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
current non-bike: http://evalbum.com/1581


--- On Thu, 7/24/08, Alan Brinkman <balan@...> wrote:

> From: Alan Brinkman <balan@...>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] E-tek vs Perm PMG
> To: techgrrl2003@..., "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 7:09 PM
> Janet,
>
> Some people have reported that their Etek motors get too
> hot under load,
> or that they wear out brushes quickly under load.  If you
> do not find a
> more suitable smaller motor, would the Etek work?  It is
> 20.8 pounds, 12
> to 48 volts, and is listed as 6 HP continuous and 20 peak,
> but that is
> likely at the higher voltage.  One seller on E-bay that has
> worked on
> golf carts with the Etek says they are about 3.5 HP
> "consistent" and
> 12-14 peak HP.  This seller has a used Etek on E-bay, but
> it is the type
> that bolts to a golf cart's rear axle.  I wonder if
> this motor has a
> bearing in each end, or does it use the input shaft of the
> rear axle for
> support like other golf cart motors do?  Anyway, here is
> the E-bay item
> number 330255461831    Dale Henderson of this list has two
> Etek motors
> on his chopper style motorcycle, as he was able to get one
> hot on his
> first motorcycle.  http://www.evalbum.com/1179 
>
> Alan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces@...
> [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Janet Plato
> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 11:00 AM
> To: ev@...
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] E-tek vs Perm PMG
>
> Alan,
>
> Thanks for replying, my email client ate my longer reply,
> so this is a shorter version.
>
> > Janet,
> >
> > What do you think about the ZERO motorcycle?  A little
> pricey at
> > $7,450.  2kWh of lithium.  A replacement battery pack
> that plugs
> > in quickly is $2,950.  A second charger - $449.
> >  http://www.zeromotorcycles.com