Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
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Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by ScottMcIntosh
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I recently shot two rolls of 35mm Kodak HIE that had been hibernating in my refrigerator for the past year-plus. The expiration date on the boxes was over a year ago. I had both rolls developed, at different times, by a good local photo lab.
The first roll came out fine -- no problems with the film. The second roll, however, had hundreds of tiny dots on each negative. The dots are light/clear on the negative, and therefore produce dark dots on the positive images. The dots do not have extremely well defined edges -- i.e., when I scan the negatives and look at the positive image in Photoshop, the dots "fade out" rather than abrupting stopping. Has anyone ever run into this problem before? Could it be a result of the film itself going bad? (But note that the other roll, which was just as old and which was stored in the same conditions, came out fine.) Or did something weird happen during development? (I've developed a lot of film myself, and I've never seen anything like this before. The dots are so small and so numerous that I can't believe they're the result of bubbles on the film surface, even assuming that there was no agitation.) I used the same camera (Nikon F100) and the same filter (Hoya R72) for both rolls, so I don't think the problem is a mechanical one. Any thoughts about where the dots came from would be welcome. I didn't lose any shots of value, but if I can figure out what went wrong, I can avoid the problem in the future. Thanks. |
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Re: Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by WJM
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On 23 May 2007 at 7:53, ScottMcIntosh wrote:
> > I recently shot two rolls of 35mm Kodak HIE that had been hibernating in my > refrigerator for the past year-plus. The expiration date on the boxes was > over a year ago. I had both rolls developed, at different times, by a good > local photo lab. > > The first roll came out fine -- no problems with the film. The second roll, > however, had hundreds of tiny dots on each negative. The dots are > light/clear on the negative, and therefore produce dark dots on the positive > images. The dots do not have extremely well defined edges -- i.e., when I > scan the negatives and look at the positive image in Photoshop, the dots > "fade out" rather than abrupting stopping. > > Has anyone ever run into this problem before? Could it be a result of the > film itself going bad? (But note that the other roll, which was just as old > and which was stored in the same conditions, came out fine.) Or did > something weird happen during development? (I've developed a lot of film > myself, and I've never seen anything like this before. The dots are so > small and so numerous that I can't believe they're the result of bubbles on > the film surface, even assuming that there was no agitation.) I used the > same camera (Nikon F100) and the same filter (Hoya R72) for both rolls, so I > don't think the problem is a mechanical one. Any thoughts about where the > dots came from would be welcome. I didn't lose any shots of value, but if I > can figure out what went wrong, I can avoid the problem in the future. > Thanks. I vaguely recall the factor 'destilled water'.... -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand <w.j.markerink@...> [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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Re: Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by ScottMcIntosh
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Thanks for the suggestion. But I don't think the problem is the pressure plate, because in my case, the dots do _not_ form any pattern. They're distributed more or less randomly, and they're also much more dense/numerous than the raised bumps on the pressure plate. Sorry for leaving those details out of my initial message.
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RE: Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by Stan Patz
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>I recently shot two rolls of 35mm Kodak HIE that had been hibernating in my >refrigerator for the past year-plus. The expiration date on the boxes was >over a year ago. I had both rolls developed, at different times, by a good >local photo lab. > >The first roll came out fine -- no problems with the film. The second >roll, >however, had hundreds of tiny dots on each negative. The dots are >light/clear on the negative, and therefore produce dark dots on the >positive >images. The dots do not have extremely well defined edges -- i.e., when I >scan the negatives and look at the positive image in Photoshop, the dots >"fade out" rather than abrupting stopping. > >Has anyone ever run into this problem before? Could it be a result of the >film itself going bad? (But note that the other roll, which was just as >old >and which was stored in the same conditions, came out fine.) Or did >something weird happen during development? (I've developed a lot of film >myself, and I've never seen anything like this before. The dots are so >small and so numerous that I can't believe they're the result of bubbles on >the film surface, even assuming that there was no agitation.) I used the >same camera (Nikon F100) and the same filter (Hoya R72) for both rolls, so >I >don't think the problem is a mechanical one. Any thoughts about where the >dots came from would be welcome. I didn't lose any shots of value, but if >I >can figure out what went wrong, I can avoid the problem in the future. To Scott and the group, We need more information about these numerous soft-edged dots. If the negative density dots on the HIE are random, I would still be thinking air bubbles. In the past, I have advocated using a wetting agent, like Edwal LFN or Kodak Photo-flo, in the developer to suppress the formation of air bells on this peculiar film. If the dots are in a regular pattern, check your pressure plate and see if they correspond. You may need to cover the plate with black paper, like from 120 film. Stan Patz NYC Stan@... www.PatzImaging.com _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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Re: Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by Marco-85
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Hi Scott,
check this: http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/infrared/hie/defects_from_xtol1a.jpg http://www.pauck.de/marco/photo/infrared/hie/hie.html Marco ScottMcIntosh wrote: > I recently shot two rolls of 35mm Kodak HIE that had been hibernating in my > refrigerator for the past year-plus. The expiration date on the boxes was > over a year ago. I had both rolls developed, at different times, by a good > local photo lab. > > The first roll came out fine -- no problems with the film. The second roll, > however, had hundreds of tiny dots on each negative. The dots are > light/clear on the negative, and therefore produce dark dots on the positive > images. The dots do not have extremely well defined edges -- i.e., when I > scan the negatives and look at the positive image in Photoshop, the dots > "fade out" rather than abrupting stopping. > > Has anyone ever run into this problem before? Could it be a result of the > film itself going bad? (But note that the other roll, which was just as old > and which was stored in the same conditions, came out fine.) Or did > something weird happen during development? (I've developed a lot of film > myself, and I've never seen anything like this before. The dots are so > small and so numerous that I can't believe they're the result of bubbles on > the film surface, even assuming that there was no agitation.) I used the > same camera (Nikon F100) and the same filter (Hoya R72) for both rolls, so I > don't think the problem is a mechanical one. Any thoughts about where the > dots came from would be welcome. I didn't lose any shots of value, but if I > can figure out what went wrong, I can avoid the problem in the future. > Thanks. * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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RE: Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by ScottMcIntosh
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The dots are entirely random, extremely small (~ 0.1-0.2mm in diameter), and very numerous (at a guess, several hundred per negative). Does that support the air bubble theory? I don't have any experience with air bubbles, so I can't say myself.
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Re: Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by ScottMcIntosh
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Marco, the dots on your linked JPG image are _exactly_ what I'm seeing on my negatives. I guess the exact cause is a mystery, but it's reassuring to know that I'm not the only one this has happened to. I think I'll develop my next roll of HIE myself with D76. If the problem recurs, I won't have anyone else to blame but myself. Thanks.
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Re: Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by Peter Badcock
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Probably not what you have, but it reminds me of the pinhole problem
seen in the 4x5" films here http://www.cocam.co.uk/CoCamWS/Infrared/INFRARED.HTM#KDBW On 24/05/07, ScottMcIntosh <commerce4me-general@...> wrote: > > Thanks for the suggestion. But I don't think the problem is the pressure > plate, because in my case, the dots do _not_ form any pattern. They're > distributed more or less randomly, and they're also much more dense/numerous > than the raised bumps on the pressure plate. Sorry for leaving those > details out of my initial message. > > > Jimmy Williams wrote: * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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Re: Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by George L Smyth-2
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--- ScottMcIntosh <commerce4me-general@...> wrote: > > Marco, the dots on your linked JPG image are _exactly_ what I'm seeing on my > negatives. I guess the exact cause is a mystery, but it's reassuring to > know that I'm not the only one this has happened to. I think I'll develop > my next roll of HIE myself with D76. If the problem recurs, I won't have > anyone else to blame but myself. Thanks. I think developing yourself will be the key. The D76 should be made with distilled water if there is a chance for any problems with your water supply. I've never seen anything like the image Marco offered, which is quite different from the pinhole issue with HSI. Chances are also that the lab may have screwed up, thus doing it yourself will always be a better option (nobody cares more about your images than you). Cheers - george ------------------------------------- Eclectic Mix: http://EclecticMix.com One Minute How-To: http://OneMinuteHowTo.com DRiP Investing: http://DRiPInvesting.org - Blog: http://feeds.feedburner.com/PrudentInvestor Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com - Blog: http://feeds.feedburner.com/GLSmyth * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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RE: Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by Stan Patz
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>
>The dots are entirely random, extremely small (~ 0.1-0.2mm in diameter), >and >very numerous (at a guess, several hundred per negative). Does that >support >the air bubble theory? I don't have any experience with air bubbles, so I >can't say myself. > > >Stan Patz wrote: > > > > > > We need more information about these numerous soft-edged dots. If the > > negative density dots on the HIE are random, I would still be thinking >air > > bubbles. In the past, I have advocated using a wetting agent, like Edwal > > LFN > > or Kodak Photo-flo, in the developer to suppress the formation of air > > bells > > on this peculiar film. > > To Scott and the group, I know this is a discussion group, so we talk about our problems. Every year we have posts about the many ways Kodak HIE negatives are marred. (I never read about similar trouble with other films, like Konica 750.) At some point experimentation, lab work, seems appropriate. Faced with a similar spotting problem many years ago, I did a simple test. I exposed about half a roll of HIE, about 18 shots of the NYC skyline with lots of blue sky. In the darkroom, I cut the film strip in half and put the pieces in separate processing tanks. One can had D-76 with Edwal LFN and it got vigorous initial agitation (the most critical point) with banging and inversions every 30 sec. The second tank with no wetting agent suffered from negelect; no sharp rapping, just lazy inversions every 30 sec. It was not a totally accurate test because I used short strips, not full rolls with tighter spaces, but I got results. The strip with less agitation had lots of soft, round spots. The strip which got plenty of agitation was not perfect, but it only had a few. By far, HIE 35mm is the most difficult film I have ever used for getting clean processing. I tried other suggestions, like distilled water for diluting the developer, a non-acid, running water "stop bath", alternate developers etc. The only thing which helped was more and more agitation which, I presume, was knocking off those little air bubbles that were clinging to the film surface. I don't know why Kodak never helped us with this persistent problem. YMMV, but I came to some agreement with the film and my darkroom technique. I suggest you try the same experiment. BTW, these soft-edged, round, light spots on HIE negatives are NOT the same problem as the tiny, irregular "pinholes" which show occasionally on HIE, but were present on every one of my 4x5 sheets of Kodak HSI. People at Kodak finally admitted to me in 1998, that was a manufacturing problem, an unfortunate by-product in fabrication. Stan Patz NYC Stan@... www.PatzImaging.com _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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RE: Dots on expired Kodak HIE negatives?
by WJM
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On 24 May 2007 at 15:19, Stan Patz wrote:
> By far, HIE 35mm is the most difficult film I have ever used for getting > clean processing. I tried other suggestions, like distilled water for > diluting the developer, a non-acid, running water "stop bath", alternate > developers etc. The only thing which helped was more and more agitation > which, I presume, was knocking off those little air bubbles that were > clinging to the film surface. In that suspected context, a nice over-engineered solution could be to put the development-tank in/on an ultrasound cleaning device....:)) Willem (and perhaps gain 1-2 stops exposure speed as well, or any other insane unsuspected effect....one never knows....;)) Jan > I don't know why Kodak never helped us with this persistent problem. YMMV, > but I came to some agreement with the film and my darkroom technique. I > suggest you try the same experiment. I guess it is like your parents-in-law not helping you to deal with your partner, with whom you must also come to some kind of agreement....;)) > BTW, these soft-edged, round, light spots on HIE negatives are NOT the same > problem as the tiny, irregular "pinholes" which show occasionally on HIE, > but were present on every one of my 4x5 sheets of Kodak HSI. People at Kodak > finally admitted to me in 1998, that was a manufacturing problem, an > unfortunate by-product in fabrication. It was more an eufemistic expression for 'we found/invented a good reason to kill this particular format'....;(( -- Bye, Willem-Jan Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand <w.j.markerink@...> [note: 'a-one' & 'en-el'!] * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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RE: Filters for Fuji IS-1 Camera
by Cameron Shaw
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Hi Everyone,
I have obtained a Fuji IS-1 IR sensitive digital camera. Not easy to find here in the UK ! It is the version without filters supplied, unfortunately not the one that Fuji now supply with appropriate IR and IR cut (hot mirror) external 58mm diameter filters. I have not used the camera yet, only just collected it today. Could anyone suggest the best filters to use? I guess Hoya R72 would be fine for the IR? However am unsure about the filter needed for non IR colour photography as it would have to be matched to the sensor? Any useful help would be appreciated, Thanks, Cameron Shaw This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an attachment may still contain software viruses, which could damage your computer system: you are advised to perform your own checks. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as permitted by UK legislation. * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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Re: Filters for Fuji IS-1 Camera
by Joshua Putnam
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Cameron Shaw wrote:
> Hi Everyone, > I have obtained a Fuji IS-1 IR sensitive digital camera. > Not easy to find here in the UK ! > It is the version without filters supplied, unfortunately not the one that > Fuji now supply with appropriate IR and IR cut (hot mirror) external 58mm > diameter filters. > I have not used the camera yet, only just collected it today. > Could anyone suggest the best filters to use? I guess Hoya R72 would be fine > for the IR? > However am unsure about the filter needed for non IR colour photography as > it would have to be matched to the sensor? > Any useful help would be appreciated, If you go to flickr, there's an IS-1 group. If you check out the group photos, http://www.flickr.com/groups/385738@N22/pool/ you'll see a series of the same scene shot with various filters, otherwise unmodified. Examples of 950, 860, 750 nm IR filters, IS-1, MaxMax CC2 filter to block IR, and unfiltered. For IR shots, I mostly have been using the 750nm filter. I don't yet have a standard red or orange filter, I intend to try those -- the IS-1 seems sensitive enough in IR that I expect they would still give a strong Wood effect. I haven't tried any other IR-blocking filters yet, the MaxMax CC2 gets things close enough that I can usually fix any color cast digitally. It's not the most optically-perfect filter, it has a few visible flaws in the surface, but most of the time they don't seem to have any effect. -- josh@... is Joshua Putnam <http://www.phred.org/~josh/> Updated Infrared Photography Gallery: <http://www.phred.org/~josh/photo/ir.html> * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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HIE -- RIP
by William Mokrynski
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Today is a sad sad day...
I called up my supplier of HIE (the Canadian distributer for Kodak products) to place my order for a couple of bricks of 35mm HIE am I'm down to a few rolls. The supplier no longer had the product listed on their sales sheet so they called up Kodak directly to inquire. Kodak responded that there is no stock of the film, and there are no plans to replace...it has been discontinued. Sigh... This has been one of my primary films for the past 20 years. It's the only 35mm film I shoot. I've tried the Maco 820, but found the film too slow, didn't have the same halation around the highlights, and the emulsion was much thicker (an issue with one of my home brew cameras). I also preferred the grainyness of HIE. I'm not sure what I'm going to use to replace the film. Any suggestions? (digital is out) There really isn't anything out there that is a close replacement to HIE is there? I think Kodak may have just killed a certain look of photography. -William _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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RE: HIE -- RIP
by Breukel, C. (HKG)
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William,
The dead of HIE has been announced many times before, and everytime before it was luckily a rumour. Might it be that the canadian dealer does not want to carry it anymore? Maybe you could get in contact with Kodak USA and get a conformation or hopedully they tell you that it is not true (this happened about 6 months ago in GB as well) Kjeeping finges crossed, Best, Cor > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-infrared@... [mailto:owner-infrared@...] On Behalf Of > William Mokrynski > Sent: woensdag 25 juli 2007 22:19 > To: infrared@... > Subject: HIE -- RIP > > Today is a sad sad day... > > I called up my supplier of HIE (the Canadian distributer for Kodak > products) > to place my order for a couple of bricks of 35mm HIE am I'm down to a > rolls. The supplier no longer had the product listed on their sales sheet > so > they called up Kodak directly to inquire. Kodak responded that there is no > stock of the film, and there are no plans to replace...it has been > discontinued. > > Sigh... > > This has been one of my primary films for the past 20 years. It's the only > 35mm film I shoot. I've tried the Maco 820, but found the film too slow, > didn't have the same halation around the highlights, and the emulsion was > much thicker (an issue with one of my home brew cameras). I also preferred > the grainyness of HIE. > > I'm not sure what I'm going to use to replace the film. Any suggestions? > (digital is out) > There really isn't anything out there that is a close replacement to HIE > is > there? I think Kodak may have just killed a certain look of photography. > > -William > ****************************************************** * **** ******* ****************************************************** * To remove yourself from this list, send: * * UNSUBSCRIBE INFRARED * * to * * MAJORDOMO@... * *----------------------------------------------------* * For the IR-FAQ, IR-Gallery and heaps of links: * * http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm * ****************************************************** |
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Re: HIE -- RIP |
