Dayton Discovery

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Ed Berbari
Dayton Discovery
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I  have been monitoring this reflector for over 3 months as I have making up
my mind about getting a K3.  Arrived at this decision with an unusual point
of view - I will save this for another post.  I ordered a well equipped K3
on May 6 presumably ahead of the Dayton rush.

Anyway I still have a lot of questions and had a chance to talk with Wayne
this afternoon at the booth.  I wondered about the requirement of using the
keyer for standalone PSK or RTTY operation.  He said the feature was there
because he doesn't always like to turn on his computer to operate these
modes.  I agreed but noted that I can type faster than I can send code.  So
why not a more flexible way to connect just a keyboard.  He then pointed out
the RJ-45 connector on the bottom/front of the rig.  He just sort of smiled
about this, but after reading the mail for several months and reading the
owners manual fairly thoroughly this was the first I heard of this feature
(yet unused).  Following his coy smile he just indicated that the keyboard
was probably not a front burner issue.

Does anybody on the list have more info on the RJ-45 that they would like to
share?

Ed, W9EJB


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Don Wilhelm
Re: Dayton Discovery
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Ed,

That connector is currently only used in the factory test.  There was
talk of a keyboard for it last year at Dayton, but I have heard nothing
more.  Your conversation with Wayne indicates that there is still hope.

73,
Don W3FPR

Ed Berbari wrote:

> I  have been monitoring this reflector for over 3 months as I have
> making up my mind about getting a K3.  Arrived at this decision with
> an unusual point of view - I will save this for another post.  I
> ordered a well equipped K3 on May 6 presumably ahead of the Dayton rush.
>
> Anyway I still have a lot of questions and had a chance to talk with
> Wayne this afternoon at the booth.  I wondered about the requirement
> of using the keyer for standalone PSK or RTTY operation.  He said the
> feature was there because he doesn't always like to turn on his
> computer to operate these modes.  I agreed but noted that I can type
> faster than I can send code.  So why not a more flexible way to
> connect just a keyboard.  He then pointed out the RJ-45 connector on
> the bottom/front of the rig.  He just sort of smiled about this, but
> after reading the mail for several months and reading the owners
> manual fairly thoroughly this was the first I heard of this feature
> (yet unused).  Following his coy smile he just indicated that the
> keyboard was probably not a front burner issue.
>
> Does anybody on the list have more info on the RJ-45 that they would
> like to share?
>
> Ed, W9EJB
>  
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David Wilburn
Re: Dayton Discovery
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It has been talked about before, and I was under the impression it was
off the table as for as future availability.  Your discussion with
Wayne indicates otherwise.

The connector is used for testing and equipment interaction when they
build the unit at the factory.  Others can add more.  I had my hopes
up at one point that they were going to make that a keyboard port, and
looking at this response from one of the field testers, it looks like
it may still be on the 'list'.

http://www.nabble.com/forum/ViewPost.jtp?post=14037060&framed=y



Dave Wilburn
K4DGW
K2/100 - S/N 5982
K3/100 - S/N 766

"For those who fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will
never know."


Ed Berbari wrote:

> I  have been monitoring this reflector for over 3 months as I have
> making up my mind about getting a K3.  Arrived at this decision with an
> unusual point of view - I will save this for another post.  I ordered a
> well equipped K3 on May 6 presumably ahead of the Dayton rush.
>
> Anyway I still have a lot of questions and had a chance to talk with
> Wayne this afternoon at the booth.  I wondered about the requirement of
> using the keyer for standalone PSK or RTTY operation.  He said the
> feature was there because he doesn't always like to turn on his computer
> to operate these modes.  I agreed but noted that I can type faster than
> I can send code.  So why not a more flexible way to connect just a
> keyboard.  He then pointed out the RJ-45 connector on the bottom/front
> of the rig.  He just sort of smiled about this, but after reading the
> mail for several months and reading the owners manual fairly thoroughly
> this was the first I heard of this feature (yet unused).  Following his
> coy smile he just indicated that the keyboard was probably not a front
> burner issue.
>
> Does anybody on the list have more info on the RJ-45 that they would
> like to share?
>
> Ed, W9EJB
>
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Julian, G4ILO
Re: Dayton Discovery
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David Wilburn wrote:
It has been talked about before, and I was under the impression it was
off the table as for as future availability.  Your discussion with
Wayne indicates otherwise.

The connector is used for testing and equipment interaction when they
build the unit at the factory.  Others can add more.  I had my hopes
up at one point that they were going to make that a keyboard port, and
looking at this response from one of the field testers, it looks like
it may still be on the 'list'.
When this feature was originally mentioned in discussion on the reflector about a year ago it was a definite "plus" for buying a K3 for me. However having subsequently been given the impression that this was not a planned enhancement I have found an alternative.

If you would like to use data modes without a full sized computer then a basic Asus Eee PC, Fldigi and a pair of sound card audio cables will do the job, plus it will support more modes than just PSK31 and RTTY, and display more than a few characters of text. It would be not much bigger and probably not cost much more than a custom keyboard which would be required to interface with the K3's proprietary connector.

Unfortunately due to the policy of Fldigi's author of only supporting the latest mainstream Linux distributions you will need to replace the Linux that comes with the Eee with something else because the latest version of Fldigi won't run on the Eee PC. Alternatively in the Eee PC ham radio forum at Zerobeat you can find where to download the last version that works on the standard Eee PC OS.

From what I have read there are now other small, cheap Linux based laptops that could easily be used as a simple data modes terminal besides the Asus Eee PC.
Simon Brown (HB9DRV)
Re: Dayton Discovery
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There are quite a few low-price sub notebooks announced in the last few
months, one which has caught my attention is the MSI Wind PC running Windows
XP (for I am a Windows programmer by choice). The CPU chip is very low
power, performance more than adequate for any current digital mode program.

These sub notebooks are not big, not heavy and there's the extra bonus of
using a PC - larger fonts, logging and archiving of received audio for later
playback.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV

--------------------------------------------------
From: "G4ILO" <julian.g4ilo@...>

>
> If you would like to use data modes without a full sized computer then a
> basic Asus Eee PC, Fldigi and a pair of sound card audio cables will do
> the
> job, plus it will support more modes than just PSK31 and RTTY, and display
> more than a few characters of text. It would be not much bigger and
> probably
> not cost much more than a custom keyboard which would be required to
> interface with the K3's proprietary connector.
>
 

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Simon Brown (HB9DRV)
Re: Dayton Discovery [OT]
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FWIW the new ICOM IC-7200 has a USB port which supplies a CI-V interface
(serial port for radio control) *and* audio input / output, so for full
radio / digital mode support all that is needed is a single USB cable and
computer :-)

Simon Brown, HB9DRV

--------------------------------------------------
From: "G4ILO" <julian.g4ilo@...>
>
> ... and a pair of sound card audio cables will do the job ...

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Joe Subich, W4TV-3
RE: Dayton Discovery [OT]
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> FWIW the new ICOM IC-7200 has a USB port which supplies a
> CI-V interface (serial port for radio control) *and* audio
> input / output, so for full radio / digital mode support all
> that is needed is a single USB cable and computer :-)

It will be interesting to see what USB CODEC they chose and
how they deal with the audio level issues.  I seriously doubt
that they have made provision to use the radio microphone to
record DVK type messages on the computer.  

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

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Simon Brown (HB9DRV)
Re: Dayton Discovery [OT]
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My guess is that it presents itself just like a USB soundcard - for example
the Tigertronics SignaLink USB.

It's possible - even probable that the transmitted audio is available
through this link.

Myself I don't see the niche for the IC-7200 - no ATU and quite heavy.
However, as always, I hope they sell a million of them.

Simon Brown, HB9DRV

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists@...>
>
> It will be interesting to see what USB CODEC they chose and
> how they deal with the audio level issues.  I seriously doubt
> that they have made provision to use the radio microphone to
> record DVK type messages on the computer.
>
 

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Brendan Minish
Re: Dayton Discovery [OT]
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On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 18:48 +0200, Simon Brown (HB9DRV) wrote:

> Myself I don't see the niche for the IC-7200 - no ATU and quite heavy.
> However, as always, I hope they sell a million of them.

I do! Providing it can work properly down to around 11vdc input, it
looks to be an Ideal maritime mobile radio.
In MM setups the ATU is typically an auto tuner located away from the
antenna so an internal tuner is no use. Cooling and ruggedness are big
issues.
Having 'ears' to mount it securely with is a big plus.
The USB interface is a great asset here too, allowing for HF fax
reception, rig control etc over a single USB connection.
Finally the time might be nearing to replace all the ic-735's and
ic-728's that are bobbing about out there!

73
Brendan EI6IZ

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Simon Brown (HB9DRV)
Re: Dayton Discovery [OT]
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The only thing I don't have is the boat :-)

Simon Brown, HB9DRV

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Brendan Minish" <ei6iz.brendan@...>

>
> I do! Providing it can work properly down to around 11vdc input, it
> looks to be an Ideal maritime mobile radio.
> In MM setups the ATU is typically an auto tuner located away from the
> antenna so an internal tuner is no use. Cooling and ruggedness are big
> issues.
> Having 'ears' to mount it securely with is a big plus.
> The USB interface is a great asset here too, allowing for HF fax
> reception, rig control etc over a single USB connection.
> Finally the time might be nearing to replace all the ic-735's and
> ic-728's that are bobbing about out there!
>
 
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Ron D'Eau Claire
RE: Dayton Discovery [OT]
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The most popular HF remote "auto tuner" I've seen hanging on the funnels of
large ships, right at the base of a 22 ft fiberglass 'whip', is SGC 230 sold
to hams as the "Smarttuner(TM)"

Today there are over 46,000 large ships in the International Maritime fleet,
all of which carry (or soon will carry) several HF radios of the same type
of interest to Hams. That's a potential market in the hundreds of thousands
of radios; radios with relatively short lifetimes due to accident and
changing technology.

These radios operate SSB and various digital modes, similar to Ham
operation, must be frequency-agile so the Global Marine Disaster and Safety
System (GMDSS) operator can easily QSY to the frequencies in the HF range
that promise the best path for the distance and propagation conditions,
interface with LANs and personal computers, and must be very stable and
(almost) idiot-proof.

While GMDSS operators, like their Ham counterparts, are very savvy in
operating procedures and how to make contacts with the needed stations,
they, like  many Hams today, are typically *not* technicians who know what
goes on "under the hood" inside the radio. Their skill is in operating the
radio, not fixing it, just as fewer and fewer Hams have an interest in
working on their radios. (Indeed, a GMDSS operator is *not* allowed to try
to fix a broken radio. They carry spares in case of failure or they carry a
specially-licensed GMDSS Maintainer who is a technician with the tools and
knowledge to carry out repairs. That's why most ships have several radios on
board.)

This service requires very reliable, flexible HF radios almost identical to
what Hams use.

Certainly, the needs of the GMDSS operator at sea will drive the design of
modern radios from those manufacturers. That is, Ham rigs from many large
manufactures will be (some already are) rigs designed for the maritime
service that have been adapted for the Ham market. I find it somewhat
humorous to notice a popular rig on large ships, (the Icom IC-M700Pro)
offers SSB(USB) AM, CW FSK and AFSK modes. (CW? On a ship? Not today ;-)

Indeed, one of the first things I expect to see is pressure on Hams to adopt
USB as the "standard" sideband on all Amateur bands so the manufacturers
don't have to consider sideband switching in their product offering.  

Ron AC7AC



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Brendan Minish" <ei6iz.brendan@...>

>
> I do! Providing it can work properly down to around 11vdc input, it
> looks to be an Ideal maritime mobile radio. In MM setups the ATU is
> typically an auto tuner located away from the antenna so an internal
> tuner is no use. Cooling and ruggedness are big issues.
> Having 'ears' to mount it securely with is a big plus.
> The USB interface is a great asset here too, allowing for HF fax
> reception, rig control etc over a single USB connection.
> Finally the time might be nearing to replace all the ic-735's and
> ic-728's that are bobbing about out there!
>
 

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KG0KP
USB on all bands ??
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <ron@...>
To: <elecraft@...>
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Dayton Discovery [OT]

.....snip......

Indeed, one of the first things I expect to see is pressure on Hams to adopt
USB as the "standard" sideband on all Amateur bands so the manufacturers
don't have to consider sideband switching in their product offering.

Ron AC7AC

Anybody been around long enough to explain the theory behind the use of LSB
on the lower bands vs. USB higher up?  What is the advantage to doing so?

73, de Jim KG0KP


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Ken Kopp-3
USB on all bands ??
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It's been a LONG time now, but I think I can at least
give the basic idea of how lower and upper SSB on
individual bands came about.

Most of the early SSB rigs ... all HB, of course ... were
built around a BC-458 (?) "command set" TX who's VFO
covered a range just above(?) 40M

Some early store-bought rigs actually contained a BC-458
inside the box ... Central Electronics comes to mind.

The SSB audio was generated via a carefully matched
set of low frequency ... below the BC band ... crystals that
were commonly available in large quantities.  This low
frequency SSB signal was mixed with the output of the
command set's VFO and a fixed-frequency oscillator
to produce SSB RF on what ever band was desired.

Since the VFO's range was limited, the mixer oscillator
had to be switched to be above or below the VFO's frequency.
This produced LSB on 160/80/40 and USB on 20/10. There
was no 15M at that time.

I trust I'll be forgiven if I haven't explained this with great
accuracy, but you get the general idea ... (:-))

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
       ElecraftCovers@...
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Lyle Johnson
Re: USB on all bands ??
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> Anybody been around long enough to explain the theory behind the use of LSB
> on the lower bands vs. USB higher up?  What is the advantage to doing so?

Early filter rigs used 9 MHz crystal filters.  With a 5.0 - 5.5 MHz VFO
(often from a surplus AN/ARC-5 or SCR-274N "Command Set"), you got 80 m
and 20 m.  Only needed one BFO crystal that way.

73,

Lyle KK7P

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Ian White GM3SEK
Re: USB on all bands ??
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Lyle Johnson wrote:
>> Anybody been around long enough to explain the theory behind the use of LSB
>> on the lower bands vs. USB higher up?  What is the advantage to doing so?

This is a classic detective story, with more than the usual share of red
herrings!

>
>Early filter rigs used 9 MHz crystal filters.  With a 5.0 - 5.5 MHz VFO
>(often from a surplus AN/ARC-5 or SCR-274N "Command Set"), you got 80 m
>and 20 m.  Only needed one BFO crystal that way.
>
The 9MHz filter rigs were relative latecomers; the ham USB/LSB standard
was at least 10-20 years earlier. Far from helping to create the USB/LSB
standard, the 9MHz filter rigs involve extra complications  to meet that
standard.

A 9MHz xtal filter with a single (low side) carrier xtal and 5.0-5.5MHz
VFO will give USB on *both* 80m and 20m. To generate LSB on 80m, these
rigs needed a second (high side) carrier xtal, which meant another
switch to throw when changing bands.

A much earlier influence on the ham standard was the 80/20m phasing
exciter by Norgaard, W2KUJ, which generated SSB on 5MHz and mixed with a
9MHz VFO. This frequency plan does invert the sideband, and decisions
between early experimenters using this rig seem to have been the true
origin of the ham standard.

When SSB experimenters in the USA and Europe began to work each other,
the world-wide ham standards grew out of those very first QSOs -
suddenly, everyone around the world had to agree which sideband to use
on which band. (British experimenters had actually been using USB on
80m, and on an agreed date they all changed to the new international
standard of LSB.)

Meanwhile, at around the same time in the late 1940s, the big telephone
and telegraph companies were starting to use ISB (independent sideband)
for their international radio traffic. ISB carries two completely
separate channels on opposite sidebands, so the transmitters generated
separate USB and LSB signals sharing the same suppressed carrier
frequency, about 2MHz. The two SSB signals on opposite sidebands were
simply combined to create the ISB signal. This ISB signal was then
upconverted to a range of crystal-controlled working frequencies which
could be anywhere up to 30MHz. To keep the two ISB signals consistently
'the same way up' and avoid inadvertently swapping channels between the
two ends of the link, the upconversion oscillator would have to be
consistently on the high side of the IF... but at the upper end of the
HF band, high-side injection would involve difficult and expensive
overtone oscillators (this was half a century ago, remember).

To help get around this problem, the companies involved agreed to use
high-side oscillators for working frequencies up to 10MHz, and low-side
oscillators for higher frequencies. Therefore all international ISB
links inverted (swapped) their sidebands when the working frequency
changed above or below 10MHz, and later this became adopted by CCIR as a
formal world standard. As more ham bands became available, IARU needed
to decide what the formal turnover frequency between USB and LSB should
be... somewhere between 7MHz and 14MHz obviously; but where exactly? We
discovered the existing CCIR standard for ISB, and IARU decided to adopt
the same turnover frequency of 10MHz.

So there we are. The ham standards for USB/LSB seem to originate from a
mixture of technical considerations and what happened way back in the
very first experimental QSOs... unless someone else has even better
information!


Commenting on Ron's posting, with today's DSP-based rigs there is now
*less* reason than at any time in history for hams to change to the
marine standard of using USB on all frequencies. All it needs to swap
sidebands is a few changes from "+" to "-" in the DSP code, and to link
that to the band selector. It's all done for us in the K3... but are you
*sure* you got those signs right, Lyle?  :-)



--

73 from Ian GM3SEK
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek
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Lyle Johnson
Re: USB on all bands ??
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Thank you for the clarifications Ian.

> ...  All it needs to swap
> sidebands is a few changes from "+" to "-" in the DSP code, and to link
> that to the band selector. It's all done for us in the K3... but are you
> *sure* you got those signs right, Lyle?  :-)

"I know you believe you understand what you think I wrote, but I am not
sure you realize that what you read is not exactly what I meant."

:-)

73,

Lyle KK7P



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Sandy-40
Re: USB on all bands ??
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One of the original theories for the LSB/USB differences was brought about
by the use of a 9Mhz. "IF" frequency in some of the early SSB gear.

Originally, there was no voice modes at all on the 40 meter band.  Also 15
meters hadn't been opened yet and there was little SSB activity on 10
meters.  Hence, the "primary" SSB activity was mainly on 75 and 20 meters.
Generating SSB on 9 Mhz. was chosen for ease of operation and also to
minimize "spurious mixing byproduct signals."  This was heterodyned to 4 and
14 Mhz bands by use of a 5 Mhz VFO (hence 14-14.3 and 3.8-4.0 Mhz bands used
the same VFO range.)  If Upper sideband was selected on the 9 Mhz. SSB
generator, this would result in USB on 20 meters and LSB on 75 meters for
basically the same VFO range.
The first widely popular SSB transmitter was the "SSB Jr." exciter which
came out in GE Ham News as I recall.  The circuit was adapted and refined by
Central Electronics when they manufactured their then famous model 10A and
later, 10B exciter/transmitter.  A paltry 10 watts SSB!  SSB advocates were
quick to point out how well SSB "got out" compared to AM voice using much
less power and band space.  The practice of using LSB on 75 and USB on 20
continued, as changing over would necessitate turning another switch, and
the practice of not switching sidebands in the 9 MHZ. SSB generator had been
the "norm" for several years so the practice persisted.  For those who don't
know it, the "phasing" method of generating SSB was the "most used" method
in the beginning and lent itself to homebrew construction from junkbox parts
of SSB gear in the early days.  HF filters were then very expensive, and few
amateurs who "built" gear could afford the Collins mechanical filters!  The
complex crystal filter much used these days, hadn't come into widespread use
yet.

When 40 meters was eventually assigned a "voice" sub-band and 15 meters was
opened, the practice of USB from 20 meters to 10 meters and USB on 160-40
meters was established.  I have no idea just "who" established it!  ARRL?
General use?  The "little band of SSB advocates" in a world of AM diehards?
Ideas any of you old timers?

When use of SSB became popular in commercial marine radio circuits and
eventually the military and aeronautical long haul communications, Upper
Sideband was "standardized" for these services.  (By the FCC?)  The amateur
services did not follow suit.

Should we do that today?  Some people say yes, some say leave it as it is.
It WOULD simplify manufacturing the radios by elimination of un-needed
parts/switching devices.  I would imagine very little vacuum tube homebrew
gear is still in use that worked only USB on 20 and LSB on 75 meters!

Anyway, that's the "WHY" of sideband use on the ham bands today digging back
to when SSB was for all practical purposes, "non-existent" practiced by a
few radical amateurs during the days of what turned out to be mostly
unstable receivers in the "old days".  Am was "too easy" to keep using on
the hundreds of watering holes on 75 meter AM for "local" operation before
the widespread popularity of 2 meters!

73,

Sandy W5TVW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Miller" <JimMiller@...>
To: <elecraft@...>
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 10:37 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] USB on all bands ??


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <ron@...>
> To: <elecraft@...>
> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 5:38 PM
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Dayton Discovery [OT]
>
> .....snip......
>
> Indeed, one of the first things I expect to see is pressure on Hams to
> adopt
> USB as the "standard" sideband on all Amateur bands so the manufacturers
> don't have to consider sideband switching in their product offering.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> Anybody been around long enough to explain the theory behind the use of
> LSB
> on the lower bands vs. USB higher up?  What is the advantage to doing so?
>
> 73, de Jim KG0KP
>
>
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w6jd
Re: USB on all bands ??
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Thank you Alan Greenspan!!

Doug
W6JD

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Lyle Johnson <kk7p@...>

> Thank you for the clarifications Ian.
>
> > ... All it needs to swap
> > sidebands is a few changes from "+" to "-" in the DSP code, and to link
> > that to the band selector. It's all done for us in the K3... but are you
> > *sure* you got those signs right, Lyle? :-)
>
> "I know you believe you understand what you think I wrote, but I am not
> sure you realize that what you read is not exactly what I meant."
>
> :-)
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P
>
>
>
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Brian Lloyd-6