Combining Mesa3D and DRI mailing lists and/or sites? (was: Re: Wrapping up 7.4 (finally))

[Timo Jyrinki-4]

2008/6/12 Daniel Stone <daniel@...>:
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:49:57AM +0300, Timo Jyrinki wrote:
>> Speaking of which, if you have any ideas how to better interlink and combine:
>> - http://dri.freedesktop.org/
>> - http://xorg.freedesktop.org/
>> - http://mesa3d.org/
...
> I don't understand why DRI and Mesa have separate lists and websites,
> tbh, especially given the level of crosstalk.  For the wikis, it should
> be possible to link between them, and I'll try to sort out how to make
> that happen.

Hi. Would it be any beneficial to (either, both or neither):

1. Combine mailing lists as follows:
- mesa3d-dev & dri-devel
- mesa3d-users & dri-users
- mesa3d-announce & dri-announce
- mesa-commit & dri-patches

There is probably historical reasons for the separation, but are there
any current ones that would be more important than the benefits for
single point of discussion about Mesa/DRI which overlap so much anyway
(especially in users' perspective, but also development-wise)?

At the same time, they might be moved to freedesktop.org from sourceforge.net?

2. Make DRI's wiki into combined Mesa3D's and DRI's wiki. Mesa3D does
not currently have a wiki of its own, but DRI has. Mesa3D certainly
doesn't need yet another wiki in addition to X.org wiki and DRI wiki,
so why not make it a common one officially?

I think Mesa3D's current web site is quite nicely organized, and could
be evolved from that by integrating a bit more DRI stuff and the new
(currently DRI) wiki into it. Certainly not throwing away it and
replacing with a wiki, a wiki would take a very big effort to make it
as navigable and organized as the Mesa3D homepage currently is.

If either sounds reasonable, is it acceptable for DRI as a project to
be generally known (as it already mostly is known, I think) a
sub-project of Mesa3D, so the combined name would be simply Mesa3D? Or
is there a need for clearer separation between the two? Mainly
important from the perspective of naming of the mailing lists, ie. can
they be mesa3d-devel or something else.

-Timo

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[Keith Whitwell]

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 5:28 PM, Timo Jyrinki <timo.jyrinki@...> wrote:

> 2008/6/12 Daniel Stone <daniel@...>:
>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:49:57AM +0300, Timo Jyrinki wrote:
>>> Speaking of which, if you have any ideas how to better interlink and combine:
>>> - http://dri.freedesktop.org/
>>> - http://xorg.freedesktop.org/
>>> - http://mesa3d.org/
> ...
>> I don't understand why DRI and Mesa have separate lists and websites,
>> tbh, especially given the level of crosstalk.  For the wikis, it should
>> be possible to link between them, and I'll try to sort out how to make
>> that happen.
>
> Hi. Would it be any beneficial to (either, both or neither):
>
> 1. Combine mailing lists as follows:
> - mesa3d-dev & dri-devel
> - mesa3d-users & dri-users
> - mesa3d-announce & dri-announce
> - mesa-commit & dri-patches
>
> There is probably historical reasons for the separation, but are there
> any current ones that would be more important than the benefits for
> single point of discussion about Mesa/DRI which overlap so much anyway
> (especially in users' perspective, but also development-wise)?
>
> At the same time, they might be moved to freedesktop.org from sourceforge.net?
>
> 2. Make DRI's wiki into combined Mesa3D's and DRI's wiki. Mesa3D does
> not currently have a wiki of its own, but DRI has. Mesa3D certainly
> doesn't need yet another wiki in addition to X.org wiki and DRI wiki,
> so why not make it a common one officially?
>
> I think Mesa3D's current web site is quite nicely organized, and could
> be evolved from that by integrating a bit more DRI stuff and the new
> (currently DRI) wiki into it. Certainly not throwing away it and
> replacing with a wiki, a wiki would take a very big effort to make it
> as navigable and organized as the Mesa3D homepage currently is.
>
> If either sounds reasonable, is it acceptable for DRI as a project to
> be generally known (as it already mostly is known, I think) a
> sub-project of Mesa3D, so the combined name would be simply Mesa3D? Or
> is there a need for clearer separation between the two? Mainly
> important from the perspective of naming of the mailing lists, ie. can
> they be mesa3d-devel or something else.

In reality, what has happened is that most of this has already
occurred -- whatever 3d driver-related traffic that hasn't been sucked
into IRC is now occurring on the Mesa lists.

The DRI list has in effect become the list for development of the drm
kernel module, libdrm, and the various memory manager implementations.
 While Mesa is an important client of these, it is far from being the
only client.

I actually think the current structure makes a lot of sense - if we
wanted a change, we could rename dri-devel to drm-devel, but it hardly
seems worthwhile.  Another proposal would be to merge the DRI lists
into LKML...  I don't really want to do that either...

Keith

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[Tomas Carnecky]

Keith Whitwell wrote:
> The DRI list has in effect become the list for development of the drm
> kernel module, libdrm, and the various memory manager implementations.
>  While Mesa is an important client of these, it is far from being the
> only client.

Interesting. Who else is a client of drm? (apart of the ATI driver
which, last I heard, uses drm).

tom

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[Alex Deucher]

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Tomas Carnecky <tom@...> wrote:
> Keith Whitwell wrote:
>> The DRI list has in effect become the list for development of the drm
>> kernel module, libdrm, and the various memory manager implementations.
>>  While Mesa is an important client of these, it is far from being the
>> only client.
>
> Interesting. Who else is a client of drm? (apart of the ATI driver
> which, last I heard, uses drm).

All of the open source 3D drivers use the drm.

Alex

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[Timo Jyrinki-4]

2008/6/12 Keith Whitwell <keith@...>:
> In reality, what has happened is that most of this has already
> occurred -- whatever 3d driver-related traffic that hasn't been sucked
> into IRC is now occurring on the Mesa lists.

Right. I now rearranged DRI wiki's mailing list page
http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/MailingLists by stating that fact. I
also commented out the dri-announce mailing list which hadn't been
used for 5+ years.

> I actually think the current structure makes a lot of sense - if we
> wanted a change, we could rename dri-devel to drm-devel, but it hardly
> seems worthwhile.

It'd be nice, but only if somehow automagic enough. Just documentation
is mostly enough, too.

What about the dri-users mailing list? From users point of view
DRI/Mesa/DRM are mostly all the same (users want them all), and any
"users" of DRM are likely to be halfway developers anyway. While DRI
discussion has successfully migrated to mesa3d-dev list, users are
currently randomly posting either mesa3d-users or dri-users and the
discussion is not coherent. Could those two mailing lists be merged
into mesa3d-users, or do you think that mentioning dri-users is
(nowadays) for DRM discussion is enough to fix the problem from now
on?

Regarding wikis, I also started reorganizing the front page
http://dri.freedesktop.org/ a bit, including changing title to include
Mesa, too. I still think that it could be the wiki for both Mesa and
DRI, and that mesa3d.org could include a link to the wiki (or "DRI
wiki" because of the current status) under eg. the "Resources" title
instead of having the link to "DRI website" only in the bottom of the
navigation. What do you think?

-Timo

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[Brian Paul]

Timo Jyrinki wrote:

> 2008/6/12 Keith Whitwell <keith@...>:
>> In reality, what has happened is that most of this has already
>> occurred -- whatever 3d driver-related traffic that hasn't been sucked
>> into IRC is now occurring on the Mesa lists.
>
> Right. I now rearranged DRI wiki's mailing list page
> http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/MailingLists by stating that fact. I
> also commented out the dri-announce mailing list which hadn't been
> used for 5+ years.
>
>> I actually think the current structure makes a lot of sense - if we
>> wanted a change, we could rename dri-devel to drm-devel, but it hardly
>> seems worthwhile.
>
> It'd be nice, but only if somehow automagic enough. Just documentation
> is mostly enough, too.
>
> What about the dri-users mailing list? From users point of view
> DRI/Mesa/DRM are mostly all the same (users want them all), and any
> "users" of DRM are likely to be halfway developers anyway. While DRI
> discussion has successfully migrated to mesa3d-dev list, users are
> currently randomly posting either mesa3d-users or dri-users and the
> discussion is not coherent. Could those two mailing lists be merged
> into mesa3d-users, or do you think that mentioning dri-users is
> (nowadays) for DRM discussion is enough to fix the problem from now
> on?
>
> Regarding wikis, I also started reorganizing the front page
> http://dri.freedesktop.org/ a bit, including changing title to include
> Mesa, too. I still think that it could be the wiki for both Mesa and
> DRI, and that mesa3d.org could include a link to the wiki (or "DRI
> wiki" because of the current status) under eg. the "Resources" title
> instead of having the link to "DRI website" only in the bottom of the
> navigation. What do you think?

Sounds good.  Send me a patch to the html file...

-Brian


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[Keith Whitwell]

On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 8:31 AM, Timo Jyrinki <timo.jyrinki@...> wrote:

> 2008/6/12 Keith Whitwell <keith@...>:
>> In reality, what has happened is that most of this has already
>> occurred -- whatever 3d driver-related traffic that hasn't been sucked
>> into IRC is now occurring on the Mesa lists.
>
> Right. I now rearranged DRI wiki's mailing list page
> http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/MailingLists by stating that fact. I
> also commented out the dri-announce mailing list which hadn't been
> used for 5+ years.
>
>> I actually think the current structure makes a lot of sense - if we
>> wanted a change, we could rename dri-devel to drm-devel, but it hardly
>> seems worthwhile.
>
> It'd be nice, but only if somehow automagic enough. Just documentation
> is mostly enough, too.
>
> What about the dri-users mailing list? From users point of view
> DRI/Mesa/DRM are mostly all the same (users want them all), and any
> "users" of DRM are likely to be halfway developers anyway. While DRI
> discussion has successfully migrated to mesa3d-dev list, users are
> currently randomly posting either mesa3d-users or dri-users and the
> discussion is not coherent. Could those two mailing lists be merged
> into mesa3d-users, or do you think that mentioning dri-users is
> (nowadays) for DRM discussion is enough to fix the problem from now
> on?

I think dri-users is certainly redundant now, likewise -announce.  If
those could somehow get funneled into mesa-users or an appropriate
Xorg list, that would be fine with me...

> Regarding wikis, I also started reorganizing the front page
> http://dri.freedesktop.org/ a bit, including changing title to include
> Mesa, too. I still think that it could be the wiki for both Mesa and
> DRI, and that mesa3d.org could include a link to the wiki (or "DRI
> wiki" because of the current status) under eg. the "Resources" title
> instead of having the link to "DRI website" only in the bottom of the
> navigation. What do you think?

I'm also ok with this general concept.

Keith

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[Timo Jyrinki-4]

2008/6/16 Brian Paul <brian.paul@...>:
> Sounds good.  Send me a patch to the html file...

Heh, didn't notice this post until now. Attached patch would do some
small things:
- Add link to "Wiki" under Resources
- Changes one old http://dri.sf.net link to http://dri.freedesktop.org
on intro.html
- Adds words "DRI" / "and Direct Rendering Infrastructure" on mailing
lists page and a link about DRM mailing lists

-Timo

[mesa_website_add_wiki.patch]

---

diff --git a/docs/contents.html b/docs/contents.html
index 3feb8ca..257b13f 100644
--- a/docs/contents.html
+++ b/docs/contents.html
@@ -48,6 +48,7 @@ a:visited {
 <li><a href="lists.html" target="MainFrame">Mailing Lists</a>
 <li><a href="bugs.html" target="MainFrame">Bug Database</a>
 <li><a href="webmaster.html" target="MainFrame">Webmaster</a>
+<li><a href="http://dri.freedesktop.org/" target="MainFrame">Wiki</a>
 </ul>
 
 <b>User Topics</b>
diff --git a/docs/intro.html b/docs/intro.html
index 0e37322..aae2e6e 100644
--- a/docs/intro.html
+++ b/docs/intro.html
@@ -22,9 +22,10 @@ for modern GPUs.
 
 <p>
 Mesa ties into several other open-source projects: the
-<a href="http://dri.sf.net/" target="_parent">Direct Rendering Infrastructure</a>
-and <a href="http://x.org" target="_parent">X.org</a> to provide OpenGL
-support to users of X on Linux, FreeBSD and other operating systems.
+<a href="http://dri.freedesktop.org/" target="_parent">Direct Rendering
+Infrastructure</a> and <a href="http://x.org" target="_parent">X.org</a> to
+provide OpenGL support to users of X on Linux, FreeBSD and other operating
+systems.
 </p>
 
 
diff --git a/docs/lists.html b/docs/lists.html
index a2cad12..5227fbd 100644
--- a/docs/lists.html
+++ b/docs/lists.html
@@ -9,7 +9,7 @@
 <H1>Mailing Lists</H1>
 
 
-<p>There are four Mesa mailing lists:
+<p>There are four Mesa 3D / DRI mailing lists:
 </p>
 
 <ul>
@@ -19,14 +19,14 @@ versions are sent to this list.
 </li>
 <br>
 <li><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mesa3d-users"
-target="_parent">mesa3d-users</a> - intended for users of the Mesa library.
+target="_parent">mesa3d-users</a> - intended for users of the Mesa and DRI.
 Newbie questions are appropriate, but please try the general OpenGL
-resources and Mesa documentation first.
+resources and Mesa/DRI documentation first.
 </li>
 <br>
 <li><a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/mesa3d-dev"
-target="_parent">mesa3d-dev</a> - for discussion of Mesa development.
-Not for beginners.
+target="_parent">mesa3d-dev</a> - for discussion of Mesa and Direct Rendering
+Infrastructure development. Not for beginners.
 </li>
 <br>
 <li><a href="http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/mesa-commit"
@@ -37,6 +37,9 @@ Note: the old mesa3d-cvs list is no longer in use.
 </li>
 </ul>
 
+<p>For mailing lists about Direct Rendering Modules (drm) in Linux/BSD
+kernels, see <a href="http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/MailingLists">wiki</a>.
+
 <p>
 <b>Notice</b>: non-member posts to any of these lists will be automatically
 rejected.

---

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[Brian Paul]

Timo Jyrinki wrote:

> 2008/6/16 Brian Paul <brian.paul@...>:
>> Sounds good.  Send me a patch to the html file...
>
> Heh, didn't notice this post until now. Attached patch would do some
> small things:
> - Add link to "Wiki" under Resources
> - Changes one old http://dri.sf.net link to http://dri.freedesktop.org
> on intro.html
> - Adds words "DRI" / "and Direct Rendering Infrastructure" on mailing
> lists page and a link about DRM mailing lists

Committed.  Thanks.

-Brian

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