Bug#500532: please improve english NEWS.Debian text

[Gaudenz Steinlin]

Package: ttf-kochi
Version: 1.0.20030809-6
Severity: normal
Tags: l10n

Hi Hideki

Thank you that you for taking care of the japanese font packages. I think
that the english text in the new NEWS.Debian file could be improved. I've
made a suggestion for an alternative text below. I removed the listing of
the corrupted glyphs because I think this is not important enough and users
won't recognize the glyphs by their UTF codes. But then I'm not really familiar
with japanese fonts and this could well be important information for
japanese users. So feel free to readd the codes if they are important.

I CCed this report to the debian-l10n-english@... list for
review. I'm also not a nativ english speaker and my english could be bad
as well. So ppl on this list, please review the text below and suggest
any further improvements!

Thanks

Gaudenz


--- cut ---

ttf-sazanami replaces ttf-kochi
*******************************

The developement of the kochi fonts is discontinued. The author of
these fonts suggests the use of the sazanami fonts as a replacement.
The sazanami fonts are based on the kochi fonts. They fix several
glyphes which are corrupted in the kochi fonts.

The sazanami fonts can be found in the Debian packages ttf-sazanami-mincho
and ttf-sazanami-gothic.

--- cut ---

-- System Information:
Debian Release: lenny/sid
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (1, 'experimental')
Architecture: powerpc (ppc)

Kernel: Linux 2.6.27-rc6-wl
Locale: LANG=de_CH.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=de_CH.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash



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[Justin B Rye]

Here for d-l-e readers is the current NEWS.Debian text:

ttf-kochi (1.0.20030809-6) unstable; urgency=low        

  -------------------------------------------------------------------
  | Please use ttf-sazanami-{mincho,gothic}, instead of ttf-kochi   |          
  -------------------------------------------------------------------
         
  kochi upstream development is discontinued and upstream suggest to use
  "sazanami" font (ttf-sazanami-mincho/gothic), kochi based one. So we will
  not fix some corrupted glyphes with kochi (those glyphes are fixed with
  sazanami -U+2211, U+221F, U+222E, U+301D, U+301F, U+3231, U+3232, U+3239,
  U+32A4, U+32A5, U+32A6, U+32A7, U+32A8, and U+33CD).
           
  So Users, please use ttf-sazanami-mincho/gothic font, not ttf-kochi-*.
           
 -- Hideki Yamane (Debian-JP) <henrich@...>  Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:33:35

Gaudenz Steinlin wrote:

> ttf-sazanami replaces ttf-kochi
> *******************************
>
> The developement of the kochi fonts is discontinued. The author of
> these fonts suggests the use of the sazanami fonts as a replacement.
> The sazanami fonts are based on the kochi fonts. They fix several
> glyphes which are corrupted in the kochi fonts.
>
> The sazanami fonts can be found in the Debian packages ttf-sazanami-mincho
> and ttf-sazanami-gothic.

(Spelling: development, glyphs.)

I'd like to reduce the repetitions of "the $fontname fonts", maybe
like this:

  Upstream development of the kochi fonts has been discontinued. The author
  of these fonts suggests as a replacement the use of the kochi-based
  "sazanami" fonts. These fix several glyphs which are corrupted in the
  kochi fonts.

--
JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
        sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package


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[Hideki Yamane (Debian-JP)]

Hi,

 Thank you all! I'd like to do below. How about this?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ttf-kochi (1.0.20030809-6) unstable; urgency=low

  -------------------------------------------------------------------
  | Please use ttf-sazanami-{mincho,gothic}, instead of ttf-kochi   |
  -------------------------------------------------------------------

  Upstream development of the kochi fonts has been discontinued. The author
  of these fonts suggests as a replacement the use of the kochi-based
  "sazanami" fonts. These fix several glyphs which are corrupted in the
  kochi fonts.


 -- Hideki Yamane (Debian-JP) <henrich@...>  Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:33:35 +0900
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--
Regards,

 Hideki Yamane     henrich @ debian.or.jp/iijmio-mail.jp
 http://wiki.debian.org/HidekiYamane


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[Ben Finney-5]

Hideki Yamane <henrich@...> writes:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ttf-kochi (1.0.20030809-6) unstable; urgency=low
>
>   -------------------------------------------------------------------
>   | Please use ttf-sazanami-{mincho,gothic}, instead of ttf-kochi   |
>   -------------------------------------------------------------------

That reads fine.

If there is no detriment in using the sazanami packages as a
replacement for the kochi packages, I would suggest making the message
a little more decisive:

    The ttf-kochi-* packages are deprecated, use ttf-sazanami-{mincho,gothic} instead.

>   Upstream development of the kochi fonts has been discontinued. The author
>   of these fonts suggests as a replacement the use of the kochi-based
>   "sazanami" fonts. These fix several glyphs which are corrupted in the
>   kochi fonts.
>
>  -- Hideki Yamane (Debian-JP) <henrich@...>  Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:33:35 +0900
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reads fine to me.


Separate from this, do you think it would be a good idea to also set a
“Recommends: ttf-sazanami-mincho” on the ‘ttf-kochi-mincho’ package
(and for s/mincho/gothic/)? It doesn't seem to contradict the
“Recommends” field meaning, if I understand it properly; and it
would communicate this message automatically via the package manager.

--
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  `\                                           defeat.” —Peter Sellers |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney


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[Gaudenz Steinlin]

Hi


On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 10:01:21AM +0900, Hideki Yamane wrote:

> Hi,
>
>  Thank you all! I'd like to do below. How about this?
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ttf-kochi (1.0.20030809-6) unstable; urgency=low
>
>   -------------------------------------------------------------------
>   | Please use ttf-sazanami-{mincho,gothic}, instead of ttf-kochi   |
>   -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   Upstream development of the kochi fonts has been discontinued. The author
>   of these fonts suggests as a replacement the use of the kochi-based
>   "sazanami" fonts. These fix several glyphs which are corrupted in the
>   kochi fonts.
>
>
>  -- Hideki Yamane (Debian-JP) <henrich@...>  Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:33:35 +0900
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm fine with this text. But I'm not really an english native speaker. I like it that
the text is now shorter, but perhaps you could mention that ttf-sazanami-* is the name
of a Debian package. I'm not sure if this is clear to less experienced users.

Another question: Why don't you simply replace the ttf-kochi package with a transitional
package depending on the sazanami fonts? This way the note wouldn't be necessary, because
users wouldn't have to take action.

Gaudenz


--
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter.
Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
~ Samuel Beckett ~


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[Ben Finney-5]

Gaudenz Steinlin <gaudenz@...> writes:

> Another question: Why don't you simply replace the ttf-kochi package
> with a transitional package depending on the sazanami fonts? This
> way the note wouldn't be necessary, because users wouldn't have to
> take action.

Yes, I recommend the package maintainer ask further on ‘debian-devel’
or ‘debian-mentors’ about this issue; either my suggestion earlier in
this thread or Gaudenz's appears better for the user than a
‘NEWS.Debian’ notice.

--
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  `\                                                 —Henry L. Mencken |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney


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[Hideki Yamane (Debian-JP)]

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:11:05 +0200
Gaudenz Steinlin <gaudenz@...> wrote:
> I'm fine with this text. But I'm not really an english native speaker. I like it that
> the text is now shorter, but perhaps you could mention that ttf-sazanami-* is the name
> of a Debian package. I'm not sure if this is clear to less experienced users.

 Okay, it seems to be enough reason.

  Upstream development of the kochi fonts has been discontinued. The author
  of these fonts suggests as a replacement the use of the kochi-based
  "sazanami" fonts (in Debian, ttf-sazanami-mincho and ttf-sazanami-gothic
  package). These fix several glyphs which are corrupted in the kochi fonts.

 How about, Justin?

> Another question: Why don't you simply replace the ttf-kochi package with a transitional
> package depending on the sazanami fonts? This way the note wouldn't be necessary, because
> users wouldn't have to take action.

 Because some packages hard-code "kochi-mincho" or "kochi-gothic" in
 their configurations... :-(  

 I (and other Japanese Debian Package maintainers) will check and fix it
 "post-lenny" (well, I cannot say "when" :-)
 

 And should I change its description, too?

--
Regards,

 Hideki Yamane     henrich @ debian.or.jp/iijmio-mail.jp
 http://wiki.debian.org/HidekiYamane


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[Justin B Rye]

Hideki Yamane wrote:
>   Upstream development of the kochi fonts has been discontinued. The author
>   of these fonts suggests as a replacement the use of the kochi-based
>   "sazanami" fonts (in Debian, ttf-sazanami-mincho and ttf-sazanami-gothic
>   package). These fix several glyphs which are corrupted in the kochi fonts.

That's "packageS", and I'd probably say it the other way round:
    [...] (in Debian, the packages ttf-sazanami-mincho and
    ttf-sazanami-gothic). [...]
--
JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
        sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package


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[Gaudenz Steinlin]

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 11:42:19AM +0900, Hideki Yamane wrote:

> On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:11:05 +0200
> Gaudenz Steinlin <gaudenz@...> wrote:
> > I'm fine with this text. But I'm not really an english native speaker. I like it that
> > the text is now shorter, but perhaps you could mention that ttf-sazanami-* is the name
> > of a Debian package. I'm not sure if this is clear to less experienced users.
>
>  Okay, it seems to be enough reason.
>
>   Upstream development of the kochi fonts has been discontinued. The author
>   of these fonts suggests as a replacement the use of the kochi-based
>   "sazanami" fonts (in Debian, ttf-sazanami-mincho and ttf-sazanami-gothic
>   package). These fix several glyphs which are corrupted in the kochi fonts.
>
>  How about, Justin?
>
> > Another question: Why don't you simply replace the ttf-kochi package with a transitional
> > package depending on the sazanami fonts? This way the note wouldn't be necessary, because
> > users wouldn't have to take action.
>
>  Because some packages hard-code "kochi-mincho" or "kochi-gothic" in
>  their configurations... :-(  
>
>  I (and other Japanese Debian Package maintainers) will check and fix it
>  "post-lenny" (well, I cannot say "when" :-)
>  
>
>  And should I change its description, too?

Probably yes. You could add a "deprecation warning" to the description. This way new users
clearly see, that this package should no longer be used and is only available for
compatibility reasons with not yet migrated packages.

Thank you again for your effort!

Gaudenz

--
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Try again. Fail again. Fail better.
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[Justin B Rye]

Hideki Yamane wrote:
>  Transition waring: Upstream development of the kochi fonts has been
>  discontinued. The author of this font suggests as a replacement the use of
>  the kochi-based "sazanami" font. So if you want to use this package, please
>  consider using "ttf-sazanami-mincho", instead.

Spelling ("warNing").  I'd also rephrase the last sentence:

   Transition warning: upstream development of the kochi fonts has been
   discontinued. The author of this font suggests as a replacement the use of
   the kochi-based "sazanami" font. So if you need a font like this one,
   consider installing the package "ttf-sazanami-mincho" instead.

And likewise for ttf-sazanami-gothic.
--
JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
        sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package


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[Hideki Yamane (Debian-JP)]

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:32:24 +0100
Justin B Rye <jbr@...> wrote:
> Spelling ("warNing").  I'd also rephrase the last sentence:

 Thanks! fixed.


--
Regards,

 Hideki Yamane     henrich @ debian.or.jp/iijmio-mail.jp
 http://wiki.debian.org/HidekiYamane


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