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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 07:27:23AM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
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> On 05/15/08 04:50, Magnus Therning wrote:
> > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso
> > < jordigh@... <mailto: jordigh@...>> wrote:
[snip]
>
> I used to use that list, but there were too many exceptions. Now I
> just use Adblock Plus.
me too, find it quit useful and noscript as well
>
> - --
> Ron Johnson, Jr.
> Jefferson LA USA
>
> We want... a Shrubbery!!
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- George W. Bush
10/18/2000
St. Louis, Mo.
during the third presidential debate
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
On 15/05/2008, Ron Johnson < ron.l.johnson@...> wrote:
> How can the software be conveyed to me if I'm pushing buttons on a
> seat-back screen that's connected to a server in the stewardesses'
> area. *Especially* since I don't own the seat!!!!
Depends on what "convey" means, doesn't it? I think YOU (and I, for
that matter) need to read GPLv3 more closely.
> > How does the AGPL handle a
> > situation like this, if the software were under the AGPL?
>
>
> Don't know, don't care.
This looks like a good summary of your position.
- Jordi G. H.
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
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On 05/15/08 17:01, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
> On 15/05/2008, Ron Johnson < ron.l.johnson@...> wrote:
>
>> How can the software be conveyed to me if I'm pushing buttons on a
>> seat-back screen that's connected to a server in the stewardesses'
>> area. *Especially* since I don't own the seat!!!!
>
> Depends on what "convey" means, doesn't it? I think YOU (and I, for
> that matter) need to read GPLv3 more closely.
Convey \Con*vey"\ (k[o^]n*v[=a]"), v. t. [imp. & p. p.
{Conveyed} (k[o^]n*v[=a]d"); p. pr. & vb. n. {Conveying}.]
[OF. conveir, convoier, to escort, convoy, F. convoyer, LL.
conviare, fr. L. con- + via way. See {Viaduct}, {Voyage}, and
cf. {Convoy}.]
1. To carry from one place to another; to bear or transport.
[1913 Webster]
The software is *not* being conveyed to the airline passenger. It's
conveyed from the computer programmers to Airbus and the airlines.
How can you not see this?
>> > How does the AGPL handle a
>> > situation like this, if the software were under the AGPL?
>>
>>
>> Don't know, don't care.
>
> This looks like a good summary of your position.
Yup. The GPL3 was designed by revolutionary purists who don't like
the fact that, since the revolution is almost won, they're about to
be brought behind the barn and shot.
- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
ESPN makes baseball players better.
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
On 15/05/2008, Ron Johnson < ron.l.johnson@...> wrote:
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>
> On 05/15/08 17:01, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
> > On 15/05/2008, Ron Johnson < ron.l.johnson@...> wrote:
> >
> >> How can the software be conveyed to me if I'm pushing buttons on a
> >> seat-back screen that's connected to a server in the stewardesses'
> >> area. *Especially* since I don't own the seat!!!!
> >
> > Depends on what "convey" means, doesn't it? I think YOU (and I, for
> > that matter) need to read GPLv3 more closely.
>
>
> Convey \Con*vey"\ (k[o^]n*v[=a]"), v. t. [imp. & p. p.
> {Conveyed} (k[o^]n*v[=a]d"); p. pr. & vb. n. {Conveying}.]
> [OF. conveir, convoier, to escort, convoy, F. convoyer, LL.
> conviare, fr. L. con- + via way. See {Viaduct}, {Voyage}, and
> cf. {Convoy}.]
> 1. To carry from one place to another; to bear or transport.
> [1913 Webster]
No, the legal meaning. The GPLv3 actually defines the term "convey" in
its preamble.
To "convey" a work means any kind of propagation that enables other
parties to make or receive copies. Mere interaction with a user
through a computer network, with no transfer of a copy, is not
conveying.
So it looks like you were right. Airbus is not conveying Linux, not
even as the GPLv3 defines it.
> >> Don't know, don't care.
> >
> > This looks like a good summary of your position.
>
>
> Yup. The GPL3 was designed by revolutionary purists who don't like
> the fact that, since the revolution is almost won, they're about to
> be brought behind the barn and shot.
The revolution is almost won? DRMed Bluray? Google kicking AGPLed
projects off its servers? Code moving to the web browser thus
disabling users' ability to peruse the code? Apple taking code without
giving back in a usable way, or not giving back at all? The copyright
hoarders managing to pass more laws in their favour to the detriment
of most citizens?
What revolution are you talking about, because this looks like far
from a victory to me.
By the way, unlike you, I do not advocate murder of anyone.
- Jordi G. H.
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
On Thu, May 15, 2008 3:19 pm, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
> By the way, unlike you, I do not advocate murder of anyone.
Neither did he. Unlike you, he grasps the concept of allegory.
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Steve Lamb
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
On 15/05/2008, Steve Lamb < grey@...> wrote:
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 3:19 pm, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
> > By the way, unlike you, I do not advocate murder of anyone.
>
>
> Neither did he. Unlike you, he grasps the concept of allegory.
Getting incensed enough about something to suggest that someone is
going to be taken behind a barn and shot borders on having Godwin's
law applied to it. That was my facetious way of pointing that out.
The GPLv3 does good things and fixes many problems. It's a necessary
license, and given its growing level of adoption, I'm not alone with
this opinion.
- Jordi G. H.t
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
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On 05/15/08 17:37, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
> On 15/05/2008, Steve Lamb < grey@...> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 15, 2008 3:19 pm, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
>> > By the way, unlike you, I do not advocate murder of anyone.
>>
>>
>> Neither did he. Unlike you, he grasps the concept of allegory.
>
> Getting incensed enough about something to suggest that someone is
> going to be taken behind a barn and shot borders on having Godwin's
> law applied to it. That was my facetious way of pointing that out.
There must be a socio-linguistic gap here.
In the US (and probably in Canada/UK/ANZ), there's an expression
that after the revolution is won, the revolutionary leaders are
brought "out back" and shot.
The meaning is that the firebrand personality and temperament needed
to foment and lead a revolution is counter to those needed to run
the country once the revolution is over. But the revolutionaries
obviously don't want to give up power, and they'd cause too many
headaches and embarrassments, so "professional politicians" quickly
step in and have the firebrands "neutralized".
> The GPLv3 does good things and fixes many problems. It's a necessary
> license, and given its growing level of adoption, I'm not alone with
> this opinion.
- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
ESPN makes baseball players better.
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
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On 05/15/08 17:19, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
> On 15/05/2008, Ron Johnson < ron.l.johnson@...> wrote:
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>>
>> On 05/15/08 17:01, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
>> > On 15/05/2008, Ron Johnson < ron.l.johnson@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >> How can the software be conveyed to me if I'm pushing buttons on a
>> >> seat-back screen that's connected to a server in the stewardesses'
>> >> area. *Especially* since I don't own the seat!!!!
>> >
>> > Depends on what "convey" means, doesn't it? I think YOU (and I, for
>> > that matter) need to read GPLv3 more closely.
>>
>>
>> Convey \Con*vey"\ (k[o^]n*v[=a]"), v. t. [imp. & p. p.
>> {Conveyed} (k[o^]n*v[=a]d"); p. pr. & vb. n. {Conveying}.]
>> [OF. conveir, convoier, to escort, convoy, F. convoyer, LL.
>> conviare, fr. L. con- + via way. See {Viaduct}, {Voyage}, and
>> cf. {Convoy}.]
>> 1. To carry from one place to another; to bear or transport.
>> [1913 Webster]
>
> No, the legal meaning. The GPLv3 actually defines the term "convey" in
> its preamble.
>
> To "convey" a work means any kind of propagation that enables other
> parties to make or receive copies. Mere interaction with a user
> through a computer network, with no transfer of a copy, is not
> conveying.
>
> So it looks like you were right. Airbus is not conveying Linux, not
> even as the GPLv3 defines it.
But Google (or whoever else) *does* convey software to us by sending
an applet to run in the web browser. That's what the clause was
added for.
- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
ESPN makes baseball players better.
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
"Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso" < jordigh@...> writes:
> ... Apple taking code without
> giving back in a usable way, or not giving back at all?
see Darwin- Apple is giving away a bunch of it's OS-level advances.
Like most companies, they don't want to give away their 'core technology'
(which for apple is the gui/UI) but they are happy to give back
in non-competitive areas. It's in their interest, really, as
having a good, solid base OS that they can put a gui on helps them,
but doesn't really help their competitors all that much. The closer
they keep the darwin and FreeBSD codebases, the less work they have to
do to incorporate advances that FreeBSD makes, and the more they benefit
from the massive amount of production testing done on FreeBSD.
Most FreeBSD people seem pretty happy with what apple has done, as we
(both the linux and *BSD community) get some of the OS-level enhancements
apple makes back- This is in Apple's best interest as well, as having a
good, free server platform (without a nice GUI) doesn't really help
apple's competitors much- apple competes on it's nice UI, and cooperating
with the community allows them to get a really good, solid underlying OS
layer without nearly as much R&D cost.
It's pretty win-win- I think it's a good example of how the BSD license
can be better than the GPL. if apple was forced to open-source the
GUI or other 'crown jewels' they would not have used an open-source OS at
all- the *BSD community would have missed their contributions,
and Windows would not have a more-stable competitor in the 'easy to use'
space.
As Darwin is *BSD based, it's much easier to port changes from it to the
other *BSD systems than to Linux, but there is no licensing barrier to
taking Darwin code and porting it to Linux.
Not to say the GPL is bad, or even the AGPL - both enable different business
and development models. I'm just saying that most of the people who
wrote the code that Apple is using are pleased with the result.
here's an interesting discussion on the subject:
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2004-July/002484.html--
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
On Thu, 15 May 2008 10:07:39 -0700
"Paul Johnson" < baloo@...> wrote:
> On Thursday 15 May 2008 02:50:48 am Magnus Therning wrote:
> > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:03 PM, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso
> > < jordigh@...>
...
> > > I'd be happy with a solution that either blocks all Gmail ads or a
> > > better method to browse the 14 mailing lists I'm currently subscribed
> > > to, many of them high-volume. I'm beginning to miss Usenet.
> >
> > I use a rather large /etc/hosts file to block ads. The initial list of
> > servers to block came from http://www.ssmedia.com/utilities/hosts/ then
> > I've added the following to that:
>
> Abusing /etc/hosts can occasionally cause unexpected behavior. Both Konq and
> Iceweasel support Filterset.G; that's a tad more ideal and regularly updated.
Privoxy.
> Paul Johnson
Celejar
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
On 15 May 2008 19:40:21 -0400, Luke S Crawford < lsc@...> wrote:
> "Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso" < jordigh@...> writes:
> > ... Apple taking code without
>
> > giving back in a usable way, or not giving back at all?
>
>
> see Darwin- Apple is giving away a bunch of it's OS-level advances.
I was thinking more about the KHTML/Webkit fiasco. Looks like the code
is finally finding its way back to KDE, but Apple didn't make it easy
to happen.
Also, the GPL exception in CUPS for Apple only, of which I have
recently also complained. :-)
> Windows would not have a more-stable competitor in the 'easy to use'
> space
How exactly are we free software users benefitted by Windows having a
non-free competitor?
- Jordi G. H.
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
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On 05/15/08 18:53, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
[snip]
>
> How exactly are we free software users benefitted by Windows having a
> non-free competitor?
We as members of society benefit by the monopoly being prodded to
improve.
- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
ESPN makes baseball players better.
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
On Thu, 15 May 2008 15:58:33 -0500
"Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso" < jordigh@...> wrote:
...
> There's actually a very real example of this in Debian, modifications
> of BMWs aside. The iwlwifi driver uses a firmware blob that Intel
> claims is necessary in order to enforce FCC regulations. This is
Madwifi, too:
http://madwifi.org/wiki/About/HAL> ridiculous. First of all, it's not Intel's job to make sure its
> customers obey FCC regulations; if the customers break the
> regulations, that's their problem, not Intel's. Second, again the
You may believe so, but not everyone agrees. IANAL, but the
above referenced Madwifi page justifies the need for the binary,
closed source HAL by claiming that:
<Quote>
At least the USA Federal Communications Commission (FCC) requires that
any manufactured products have a mechanism for limiting transmission
power and frequencies, and that these mechanisms are not easily
modifiable by the consumer.
</Quote>
...
> - Jordi G. H.
Celejar
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
On Thu, May 15, 2008 4:53 pm, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
> How exactly are we free software users benefitted by Windows having a
> non-free competitor?
Lighter shades of grey are still lighter.
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Steve Lamb
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
"Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso" < jordigh@...> writes:
> Also, the GPL exception in CUPS for Apple only, of which I have
> recently also complained. :-)
This is what I was talking about with the 'gpl enables new business
models' - apple let the main cups developers 'cash out' (thus encouraging
other people to write cool and useful open-source software, or even perhaps
encouraging businesses to pay people to write cool and useful open-source
software in the hopes of cashing out later.) while still giving us
(open-source users) access to the fruits of later improvements to those
labors. Apple is using the GPL as a tool to open-source code without letting
competitors use that code without reciprocation.
Personally, I think it's a good thing, because we, the open source
community, get Apple to pay people to write code for us. We even get the
same license terms. We lose nothing, and we gain another path to getting
paid lots of money to write open-source software. Think of how much
great software we'd get paid to write if VC started funding startups
that wrote and sold dual-licensed GPL software on the "It's free if you
like the GPL, but if you want another license that costs money" model?
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
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On 05/15/08 19:29, Luke S Crawford wrote:
[snip]
> paid lots of money to write open-source software. Think of how much
> great software we'd get paid to write if VC started funding startups
> that wrote and sold dual-licensed GPL software on the "It's free if you
> like the GPL, but if you want another license that costs money" model?
Isn't that MySQL?
- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
ESPN makes baseball players better.
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
On 15 May 2008 20:29:29 -0400, Luke S Crawford < lsc@...> wrote:
> "Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso" < jordigh@...> writes:
>
> > Also, the GPL exception in CUPS for Apple only, of which I have
> > recently also complained. :-)
[snip]
> while still giving us
> (open-source users) access to the fruits of later improvements to those
> labors. Apple is using the GPL as a tool to open-source code without letting
> competitors use that code without reciprocation.
Are they really giving us access? I've seen screenshots of the printer
setup utility in Mac OS X, and although it looks vaguely like
Foomatic, I'm quite sure there's stuff in there that's not being
shared back thanks to the GPL exception.
There's also the danger of Apple forking off CUPs into a proprietary
program, along with its lead developer. Experience with seemingly
benevolent companies should have taught us that scruples aren't
profitable, and hence we cannot rely on companies to have any. They're
playing nice today, and even Microsoft was once widely thought to be
playing nice too, but there's no reason why they should keep doing so.
- Jordi G. H.
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Re: Blocking Gmail ads
Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso wrote:
> They're
> playing nice today, and even Microsoft was once widely thought to be
> playing nice too, but there's no reason why they should keep doing so.
Er, what? When did that happen? Certainly not in the past 20 or so years.
--
Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream?
PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do...
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