Big barges

[Adam Giffard]

Hi all, Not long ago there was an abortive thread on the main list about the MCA imposed minimum manning requirements for private pleasure vessels over 24m LLL. The thread generated almost no response beyond a correction of an error in the original post. (mea culpa)

According to the Leeboard List there are six such sailing barges >24m on our list, leaving aside Thames sailing barges that have negotiated some kind of blanket dispensation.  That is 6% and  seems to fit with the known proportion of motorheads >24m in the DBA.

The regulation is MSN 1802 and can be found at http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/a7_1802_final.pdf  It has been around for a couple of years, fuse smouldering all the while.

The minimum manning is Master, mate and deckhand with the mate additionally qualified as an engineer and is to be found in Annexe A.  The engineer's qualification can be found at > http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/stc-cd-mgn156-motor.pdf

I have been in an email dialogue with two Board members about this and Andy Soper has assured me that he will initiate an enquiry with MCA  to pursue some form of derogation perhaps based on restrictions in range and conditions, for example "20 miles port of refuge in fair weather and daylight" ,or taking a different tack, a relaxation  of requirements based on operation in categorised waters.  For an explanation of these see https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4/cat-waters/index.htm
I wonder what sort of derogation was obtained by the Thames sailing barges and how.

An interesting observation regarding Board policy in my email dialogue was " it is not our mission to enable barges to go to sea".  Since it is to sea we wish to go that raises some questions about where we can find help.  In fact, I believe this policy is quite correct.  The vast majority of DBA barges are not suitable for going to sea, whether by original design, lack of equipment, state of hull, inexperience of owner, etc.   The Board would be in an intolerable position if it was asked to rule on which ships are fit for a sea passage.

But sailing barges go to sea by their nature.  Or that is usually the aspiration of the owner.  So to whom should we look in seeking assistance about steps to take to "enable us to go to sea"?  Just because your barge is <24m does not let you off that hook.  

My own answer involves no outside body but looks inward to this group.  What do others think?

I would commend to anyone interested,  Chris Ries's seminar on Channel Crossing where no doubt MSN 1802 will be discussed.

Adam Giffard









.
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[terry langridge-3]

Subject: [Dbasailing] Big barges

I briefly spoke to Gerard Swift (former skipper of Cabby) today about this
and he said that when the MCA first started the manning requirements some
twenty odd years ago they didn't know anything about Thames barges so
allowed the owners associations to self police and certify skippers, similar
to the Yacht Master. This seems to also allow a different manning level. He
didn't know if crew of Dutch sailing barges over 24 metres would be able to
gain qualifications under this derogation but it seems worth enquiring.

The MCA manning requirements only seem to apply when going to sea, outside
of a classified river or estuary, the Thames seemingly the largest
stretching from Colne Point to Reculver Tower.

Someone else may be able to expand on this, Charlie perhaps?

Terry

> Hi all, Not long ago there was an abortive thread on the main list about
> the MCA imposed minimum manning requirements for private pleasure vessels
> over 24m LLL. The thread generated almost no response beyond a correction
> of an error in the original post. (mea culpa)
>
> According to the Leeboard List there are six such sailing barges >24m on
> our list, leaving aside Thames sailing barges that have negotiated some
> kind of blanket dispensation.  That is 6% and  seems to fit with the known
> proportion of motorheads >24m in the DBA.
>
> The regulation is MSN 1802 and can be found at
> http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/a7_1802_final.pdf  It has been around for a
> couple of years, fuse smouldering all the while.
>
> The minimum manning is Master, mate and deckhand with the mate
> additionally qualified as an engineer and is to be found in Annexe A.  The
> engineer's qualification can be found at >
> http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/stc-cd-mgn156-motor.pdf
>
> I have been in an email dialogue with two Board members about this and
> Andy Soper has assured me that he will initiate an enquiry with MCA  to
> pursue some form of derogation perhaps based on restrictions in range and
> conditions, for example "20 miles port of refuge in fair weather and
> daylight" ,or taking a different tack, a relaxation  of requirements based
> on operation in categorised waters.  For an explanation of these see
> https://mcanet.mcga.gov.uk/public/c4/cat-waters/index.htm
> I wonder what sort of derogation was obtained by the Thames sailing barges
> and how.
>
> An interesting observation regarding Board policy in my email dialogue was
> " it is not our mission to enable barges to go to sea".  Since it is to
> sea we wish to go that raises some questions about where we can find help.
> In fact, I believe this policy is quite correct.  The vast majority of DBA
> barges are not suitable for going to sea, whether by original design, lack
> of equipment, state of hull, inexperience of owner, etc.   The Board would
> be in an intolerable position if it was asked to rule on which ships are
> fit for a sea passage.
>
> But sailing barges go to sea by their nature.  Or that is usually the
> aspiration of the owner.  So to whom should we look in seeking assistance
> about steps to take to "enable us to go to sea"?  Just because your barge
> is <24m does not let you off that hook.
>
> My own answer involves no outside body but looks inward to this group.
> What do others think?
>
> I would commend to anyone interested,  Chris Ries's seminar on Channel
> Crossing where no doubt MSN 1802 will be discussed.
>
> Adam Giffard
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
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[Adam Giffard]

Terry & all

I understand that the situation is partially resolved thanks to some digging
by Ian Ferguson.  About eighteen months after MSN1802 came into force an
exemption was published for vessels over 24m if < 80grt.  To quote Ian, "...
I have been studying MSN 1802 and my belief is that 1802
is primarily concerned with "professional seafarers" employed in large
yachts and STVs. However, as drafted it does apply to us.
However, another MCA publication, "Information on the Regulations Applicable
to Pleasure Vessels", clearly states (p.3 Manning) "A vessel less than 24
metres length *OR* 80GT need not comply with the Manning Regulations".

However apparently there are firefighting and lifesaving implications in
1802 that are not exempted.so if you want the details the forthcoming
seminar should be the place to hear them.

The only sailing barge on the Leeboard list which is probably >80grt is
Bella (of Bow).  Does anybody know where she is lying or who owns her?

I spoke recently to Charly about this and apparently the various MCA
regional offices interpret things differently.  Cabby operates with a
skipper and a mate both holding licences granted by the Association of
Bargemen.

Regards   Adam

To: <dbasailing@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Dbasailing] Big barges


> Subject: [Dbasailing] Big barges



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[Edward Burrell-2]

Adam,

Bella of Bow is lying at Iron Wharf, Faversham.   She has been untouched
for some time now.  Contact with owners could probably be made through
Iron Wharf Boatyard  01795 536296.

Edward.

Adam Giffard wrote:

> Terry & all
>
> I understand that the situation is partially resolved thanks to some digging
> by Ian Ferguson.  About eighteen months after MSN1802 came into force an
> exemption was published for vessels over 24m if < 80grt.  To quote Ian, "...
> I have been studying MSN 1802 and my belief is that 1802
> is primarily concerned with "professional seafarers" employed in large
> yachts and STVs. However, as drafted it does apply to us.
> However, another MCA publication, "Information on the Regulations Applicable
> to Pleasure Vessels", clearly states (p.3 Manning) "A vessel less than 24
> metres length *OR* 80GT need not comply with the Manning Regulations".
>
> However apparently there are firefighting and lifesaving implications in
> 1802 that are not exempted.so if you want the details the forthcoming
> seminar should be the place to hear them.
>
> The only sailing barge on the Leeboard list which is probably >80grt is
> Bella (of Bow).  Does anybody know where she is lying or who owns her?
>
> I spoke recently to Charly about this and apparently the various MCA
> regional offices interpret things differently.  Cabby operates with a
> skipper and a mate both holding licences granted by the Association of
> Bargemen.
>
> Regards   Adam
>
> To: <dbasailing@...>
> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [Dbasailing] Big barges
>
>
>
>>Subject: [Dbasailing] Big barges
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> Visit http://www.barges.org for info, events, to buy and sell barges or equipment.  ------------------------------------------------------
> You can manage your records yourself, including unsubscribing and retrieving lost passwords at http://www.barges.org/main.php?section=1832 
>
>

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[terry langridge-3]

Hi Adam,

> I understand that the situation is partially resolved thanks to some
> digging by Ian Ferguson.  About eighteen months after MSN1802 came into
> force an exemption was published for vessels over 24m if < 80grt.  To
> quote Ian, "... I have been studying MSN 1802 and my belief is that 1802
> is primarily concerned with "professional seafarers" employed in large
> yachts and STVs. However, as drafted it does apply to us. However, another
> MCA publication, "Information on the Regulations Applicable to Pleasure
> Vessels", clearly states (p.3 Manning) "A vessel less than 24 metres
> length *OR* 80GT need not comply with the Manning Regulations".

I had always thought that my barge was 80 tonnes (tonnen) but can't recall
where I got that from so I've just looked in my Meetbrief. It gives a
maximum load at 111cm gemiddelde inzinking of 121.199 tonnen verplaatsing
which I presume is the average extra draft with 121 tonnes load.

The length is 26.33m x beam 5.02m, unladen draft appears to be 57cm and at
the back of the book is a formule which gives x 0.70 to this which makes my
barge 52.73 tonnes, great!

> However apparently there are firefighting and lifesaving implications in
> 1802 that are not exempted so if you want the details the forthcoming
> seminar should be the place to hear them.

The last time I looked at all this only a few years ago, over 24mtrs the
skipper could also be the engineer, this has now changed but then a
commercial endorsement was required to the Yachtmaster or AEC by passing
lifesaving, firefighting and first aid courses plus now a social
responsibility course.

These all make sense to have and I have already done the lifesaving course
but they are expensive especially the firefighting course at £500. Perhaps a
block booking could be arranged for all these extra courses, to reduce
costs, they normally can be done in a week and I think qualify you as a
basic deckhand.

However, if I am correct in thinking that I now do not need to comply with
the current manning levels at all on my barge then I do not need a
Yachtmaster certificate or any other certificate even if I have them, any
more than I need it for my 11.58m motor sailor!

Unfortunately I was already tied up with the Dawn this Saturday so couldn't
attend the seminar but if there's is any more info on this I'd be pleased to
hear it so that it can all be clarified.

Terry.


> The only sailing barge on the Leeboard list which is probably >80grt is
> Bella (of Bow).  Does anybody know where she is lying or who owns her?
>
> I spoke recently to Charly about this and apparently the various MCA
> regional offices interpret things differently.  Cabby operates with a
> skipper and a mate both holding licences granted by the Association of
> Bargemen.
>
> Regards   Adam



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[spadeoak-barges]

Please read the FAQ - 'taking your barge to sea' on the web-site.
   
  The quick answer to your question is you do not need qualifications
   
  Tonnage is gross tonnage and the formula for that is in FAQ VAT - you need to measure the height from the top of your 'keel' to the underside of the uppermost continuous deck to get the answer.  I would expect it to  about 50 gross tons
   
 

terry langridge <terry.langridge@...> wrote:
 
Hi Adam,

> I understand that the situation is partially resolved thanks to some
> digging by Ian Ferguson. About eighteen months after MSN1802 came into
> force an exemption was published for vessels over 24m if < 80grt. To
> quote Ian, "... I have been studying MSN 1802 and my belief is that 1802
> is primarily concerned with "professional seafarers" employed in large
> yachts and STVs. However, as drafted it does apply to us. However, another
> MCA publication, "Information on the Regulations Applicable to Pleasure
> Vessels", clearly states (p.3 Manning) "A vessel less than 24 metres
> length *OR* 80GT need not comply with the Manning Regulations".

I had always thought that my barge was 80 tonnes (tonnen) but can't recall
where I got that from so I've just looked in my Meetbrief. It gives a
maximum load at 111cm gemiddelde inzinking of 121.199 tonnen verplaatsing
which I presume is the average extra draft with 121 tonnes load.

The length is 26.33m x beam 5.02m, unladen draft appears to be 57cm and at
the back of the book is a formule which gives x 0.70 to this which makes my
barge 52.73 tonnes, great!

> However apparently there are firefighting and lifesaving implications in
> 1802 that are not exempted so if you want the details the forthcoming
> seminar should be the place to hear them.

The last time I looked at all this only a few years ago, over 24mtrs the
skipper could also be the engineer, this has now changed but then a
commercial endorsement was required to the Yachtmaster or AEC by passing
lifesaving, firefighting and first aid courses plus now a social
responsibility course.

These all make sense to have and I have already done the lifesaving course
but they are expensive especially the firefighting course at £500. Perhaps a
block booking could be arranged for all these extra courses, to reduce
costs, they normally can be done in a week and I think qualify you as a
basic deckhand.

However, if I am correct in thinking that I now do not need to comply with
the current manning levels at all on my barge then I do not need a
Yachtmaster certificate or any other certificate even if I have them, any
more than I need it for my 11.58m motor sailor!

Unfortunately I was already tied up with the Dawn this Saturday so couldn't
attend the seminar but if there's is any more info on this I'd be pleased to
hear it so that it can all be clarified.

Terry.


> The only sailing barge on the Leeboard list which is probably >80grt is
> Bella (of Bow). Does anybody know where she is lying or who owns her?
>
> I spoke recently to Charly about this and apparently the various MCA
> regional offices interpret things differently. Cabby operates with a
> skipper and a mate both holding licences granted by the Association of
> Bargemen.
>
> Regards Adam



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Andy Soper
Chairman

DBA - The Barge Association
mv Cormorant
Spade Oak Reach
Cookham SL6 9RQ

07000 Barges or 07940598364
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[Adam Giffard]

True enough for barges <24m and very simple.  But according  to the naval
architect who is doing my coding the formula for over 24m is consderably
more complex.  As is the fee for doing it.   If you have an expired Part 1
registration, which I have, you need a tonnage survey in order to
re-register.  Fortunately Darby is 23.2m.

Best wishes   Adam



----- Original Message -----
From: <spadeoak-barges@...>
To: <dbasailing@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Dbasailing] Big barges


Please read the FAQ - 'taking your barge to sea' on the web-site.

  The quick answer to your question is you do not need qualifications

  Tonnage is gross tonnage and the formula for that is in FAQ VAT - you need
to measure the height from the top of your 'keel' to the underside of the
uppermost continuous deck to get the answer.  I would expect it to  about 50
gross tons





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[Adam Giffard]

Terry,   Good idea on block booking.  The Yachtmaster theory is easy enough
if you do the exercises and it can be done distance learning,   A discount
plus knowing who to talk to if you get stuck could be attractive.

Maybe we could go on from there to block testing on a barge for the
Yachtmaster practical.  Or maybe in league with the AoB rather than the RYA,

Ian Ferguson has floated the idea of there being a voluntary DBA code for
those who want to cruise coastally .  Good idea.

Maybe the coastal cruiser motorheads can team up with the sailormen.

Grist for the mill perhaps at the November meeting.  Meanwhile a summer of
sailing ahead.  Yeah!

Best wishes   Adam




----- Original Message -----
From: "terry langridge" <terry.langridge@...>
To: <dbasailing@...>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Dbasailing] Big barges


. Perhaps a block booking could be arranged for all these extra courses, to
reduce
costs, they normally can be done in a week and I think qualify you as a
basic deckhand.

However, if I am correct in thinking that I now do not need to comply with
the current manning levels at all on my barge then I do not need a
Yachtmaster certificate or any other certificate even if I have them, any
more than I need it for my 11.58m motor sailor!



-------------------------------------------------
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[terry langridge-3]

Hi Adam,

> Terry,   Good idea on block booking.  The Yachtmaster theory is easy
> enough if you do the exercises and it can be done distance learning, A
> discount plus knowing who to talk to if you get stuck could be attractive.

As you say the Yachtmaster etc. theory can be done at home or locally.
Elizabeth and I did ours in the early 80's in Deptford Sailing Centre and
on the Cutty Sark. I think this was over two or three winters one night a
week in modules, chartwork and pilotage, metrology etc. but it can be done a
lot quicker. Distance learning is I think now about £200 or so plus books
etc., well worth it but even better with a discount. Day skipper can also be
done.

I wouldn't mind doing a refresher myself and we have a reasonable local guy
in Woodbridge who does the distance courses and if enough people are
interested I'd be happy to negotiate something with him or someone else with
the best block deal. The more the merrier and cheaper depending on what
level of support they offer.

Elizabeth also runs distance courses for Heath and Safety and says it's not
for everyone, you need to be focused and disciplined and some are better
with the camaraderie of an attended course, however, with this list there
should not be such a problem and may it well be a benefit especially with
other students and the archive to fall back on.

I strongly suggest that all members get a personal RYA log book ASAP even if
not yet considering going for any qualifications and log all their trips up
to date for when they take the practical.

> Maybe we could go on from there to block testing on a barge for the
> Yachtmaster practical.  Or maybe in league with the AoB rather than the
> RYA,

That certainly would be beneficial and also for the ICC which may be more
important to go foreign. A Yachtmaster practical and many other
qualifications can entitle you to the ICC but otherwise Chris Ries can take
the ICC practical and if he is subscribed to this list his input would be
appreciated.

I think the Old Gaffers are under the same derogation as the Thames Barges
and it's worth investigating if Dutch barges are accepted. Many Thames
barges take passengers commercially and possibly one or both groups might be
too narrow for us or them and it might also be down to the MCA to decide if
Dutch barges can be sailed by AOB licenced crew and then again I could be
entirely wrong and it's already going on!

Although it now seems that no qualifications are required to sail a barge
under 24 mtrs or under 80 tonnes for those going to sea or coastal it would
be sensible to get some qualifications leading to the MCA manning
requirements such as the lifesaving, first aid, and firefighting
certificates. These are the things you hope you never need but when you do,
the training, knowledge and experience gained could save someone's life,
family, friends and your own. These requirements could also change again!

> Ian Ferguson has floated the idea of there being a voluntary DBA code for
> those who want to cruise coastally.  Good idea.
> Maybe the coastal cruiser motorheads can team up with the sailormen.

Yes I certainly think that minimum manning levels and safety equipment
should be given consideration on any trip given that you can still be
prosecuted for being negligent if you have an incident even when these
things may not be a requirement. Things can go wrong, mistakes are made and
you can't be in two or three places at once! Perhaps we could also be the
coastal group?

Terry

> Grist for the mill perhaps at the November meeting.  Meanwhile a summer of
> sailing ahead.  Yeah!
>
> Best wishes   Adam
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "terry langridge" <terry.langridge@...>
> To: <dbasailing@...>
> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Dbasailing] Big barges
>
>
> . Perhaps a block booking could be arranged for all these extra courses,
> to
> reduce
> costs, they normally can be done in a week and I think qualify you as a
> basic deckhand.
>
> However, if I am correct in thinking that I now do not need to comply with
> the current manning levels at all on my barge then I do not need a
> Yachtmaster certificate or any other certificate even if I have them, any
> more than I need it for my 11.58m motor sailor!
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> Visit http://www.barges.org for info, events, to buy and sell barges or
> equipment.  ------------------------------------------------------
> You can manage your records yourself, including unsubscribing and
> retrieving lost passwords at http://www.barges.org/main.php?section=1832
>

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