An education question, not just math.

[Bret Taylor-2]

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Anybody who is a college football fan knows that Florida State is in trouble because of massive cheating in  Music History course.  When the story first borke, last summer, I immediately suspected it was far more of an academic problem, not just a cheating scandal for athletes.

 

Here is how the cheating occurred:

 

Course was web based.

Tests were given on-line.

Tests were unmonitored.

Tests were multiple choice and true-false.

Tests were not changed from semester to semester.

 

The reason this came to light was because academic advisors and tutors, hired by FSU athletic department did two things:  Had students take the test for other students.  Gave students answers to the tests.  One athlete reported the problem by telling someone in the athletic department he didn't have to take a test; the academic advisor had someone take it for him and he knew that was wrong and didn't want to get in trouble for it..  Otherwise, it might not have ever been noticed.

 

I've seen the growth of web based courses.  I understand the positives behind them.  I am not opposed to web based instruction at all.  There are ways to insure academic integrity with web based courses.

 

But, I've also seen the growth of courses operated like the one I just described.  And, I suspect virtually every university and community college has courses taught very similarly.

 

I think it is disgusting.  And, I think that the people who should really be hled accountable are:  The prof who teaches the course, the department chair who allows the course, the dean of the college in which the course is taught, and the academic committee who approved the course.

 

I am confident the cheating in the course was not limited to athletes.  I'm sure many "regular students" took advantage of the way the course was structured and took the tests with answers in hand, or took the tests with friends looking over their shoulder helping, or had others take the tests for them.

 

I've been to conferences where people have said, "Look.  It's not my job to prevent cheating.  I'm teaching the material.  If they cheat, they are only hurting themselves."

 

My questions are these:

 

1.  Does your college have courses similar to the one described above?

2.  Do you think courses like this have any place in the curriculum?

3.  If the answer to #2 is "No" then how does your school prevent them from being offered?

 

 

Bret Taylor
Eustis, FL

 

John 3:30

[Moss, Cindy]

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Hi Bret,

 

This is a great topic and this issue should be discussed.

 

I teach an online statistics course and next semester I will also teach an online intermediate algebra course. All exams are proctored and students must bring in a photo id. I have the exams weighted at 50% and the final at 20%. They also must have an average of 70% on the exams and final (weighted) in order to pass. Hopefully this will prevent cheating but of course someone could bring in a fake id. I did have a student last semester tell me she lost her id before the last exam and I let her take the exam but insisted she have one for the final. She still did not have one for the final so I did not let her take it. I told her that the syllabus said photo id required not photo id required if you have one. The dean did back me up. I gave her an incomplete until the end of January so she would have time to get one.

 

I belong to a list serve for distance learning. Here is the link if anyone is interested in joining. http://lists.ecc.edu/mailman/listinfo/mathviadistance We cover all topics including this one.

 

Cindy Moss

Skyline College

---

From: owner-mathedcc@... on behalf of Bret Taylor
Sent: Thu 12/27/2007 4:22 PM
To: mathedcc@...
Subject: An education question, not just math.

Anybody who is a college football fan knows that Florida State is in trouble because of massive cheating in  Music History course.  When the story first borke, last summer, I immediately suspected it was far more of an academic problem, not just a cheating scandal for athletes.

 

Here is how the cheating occurred:

 

Course was web based.

Tests were given on-line.

Tests were unmonitored.

Tests were multiple choice and true-false.

Tests were not changed from semester to semester.

 

The reason this came to light was because academic advisors and tutors, hired by FSU athletic department did two things:  Had students take the test for other students.  Gave students answers to the tests.  One athlete reported the problem by telling someone in the athletic department he didn't have to take a test; the academic advisor had someone take it for him and he knew that was wrong and didn't want to get in trouble for it..  Otherwise, it might not have ever been noticed.

 

I've seen the growth of web based courses.  I understand the positives behind them.  I am not opposed to web based instruction at all.  There are ways to insure academic integrity with web based courses.

 

But, I've also seen the growth of courses operated like the one I just described.  And, I suspect virtually every university and community college has courses taught very similarly.

 

I think it is disgusting.  And, I think that the people who should really be hled accountable are:  The prof who teaches the course, the department chair who allows the course, the dean of the college in which the course is taught, and the academic committee who approved the course.

 

I am confident the cheating in the course was not limited to athletes.  I'm sure many "regular students" took advantage of the way the course was structured and took the tests with answers in hand, or took the tests with friends looking over their shoulder helping, or had others take the tests for them.

 

I've been to conferences where people have said, "Look.  It's not my job to prevent cheating.  I'm teaching the material.  If they cheat, they are only hurting themselves."

 

My questions are these:

 

1.  Does your college have courses similar to the one described above?

2.  Do you think courses like this have any place in the curriculum?

3.  If the answer to #2 is "No" then how does your school prevent them from being offered?

 

 

Bret Taylor
Eustis, FL

 

John 3:30

[Collinge, Peter (Mathematics)]

At Monroe Community College, the online math courses have lower pass rates than the on-campus courses, while most of the other online courses don't see this gap in performance. Also, the math courses require proctored testing, while most of the other online courses don't. It could be a coincidence that the online courses with proctored testing also show lower pass rates, but we're convinced enough of the need for proctored testing to keep doing the extra work (and dealing with proctors is work!) despite the lack of support from our administration for this effort.

Peter Collinge
Professor and Chair
MCC Mathematics Department



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-mathedcc@... on behalf of Bret Taylor
Sent: Thu 12/27/2007 7:22 PM
To: mathedcc@...
Subject: An education question, not just math.
 
Anybody who is a college football fan knows that Florida State is in trouble because of massive cheating in  Music History course.  When the story first borke, last summer, I immediately suspected it was far more of an academic problem, not just a cheating scandal for athletes.

Here is how the cheating occurred:

Course was web based.
Tests were given on-line.
Tests were unmonitored.
Tests were multiple choice and true-false.
Tests were not changed from semester to semester.

The reason this came to light was because academic advisors and tutors, hired by FSU athletic department did two things:  Had students take the test for other students.  Gave students answers to the tests.  One athlete reported the problem by telling someone in the athletic department he didn't have to take a test; the academic advisor had someone take it for him and he knew that was wrong and didn't want to get in trouble for it..  Otherwise, it might not have ever been noticed.

I've seen the growth of web based courses.  I understand the positives behind them.  I am not opposed to web based instruction at all.  There are ways to insure academic integrity with web based courses.

But, I've also seen the growth of courses operated like the one I just described.  And, I suspect virtually every university and community college has courses taught very similarly.

I think it is disgusting.  And, I think that the people who should really be hled accountable are:  The prof who teaches the course, the department chair who allows the course, the dean of the college in which the course is taught, and the academic committee who approved the course.

I am confident the cheating in the course was not limited to athletes.  I'm sure many "regular students" took advantage of the way the course was structured and took the tests with answers in hand, or took the tests with friends looking over their shoulder helping, or had others take the tests for them.

I've been to conferences where people have said, "Look.  It's not my job to prevent cheating.  I'm teaching the material.  If they cheat, they are only hurting themselves."

My questions are these:

1.  Does your college have courses similar to the one described above?
2.  Do you think courses like this have any place in the curriculum?
3.  If the answer to #2 is "No" then how does your school prevent them from being offered?



Bret Taylor
Eustis, FL

John 3:30

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[Clark, Mark]

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At our college we have just begun online classes and the department requires that exams and the final exam are proctored.  Other departments on campus do not have this same requirement.

 

A note of how far a student will go to cheat:

 

We had a student advertise on Craig’s list to have someone take exams for an intermediate algebra class.

When we contacted him as someone willing to help him out he wanted to find someone who looked somewhat like him and they could use his id card.  The id was 3-4 years old so he believes the office helpers would not notice if it was him or not.  He actually changed his mind and wanted the person to take the placement test for him so he could skip intermediate algebra and go into another class.  By the way he had already failed our beginning algebra and intermediate algebra classes in prior semesters.

 

I do believe we should try to prevent students from cheating but also realize we will not catch everyone.

 

Mark Clark

---

From: owner-mathedcc@... [mailto:owner-mathedcc@...] On Behalf Of Bret Taylor
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 4:22 PM
To: mathedcc@...
Subject: An education question, not just math.

 

Anybody who is a college football fan knows that Florida State is in trouble because of massive cheating in  Music History course.  When the story first borke, last summer, I immediately suspected it was far more of an academic problem, not just a cheating scandal for athletes.

 

Here is how the cheating occurred:

 

Course was web based.

Tests were given on-line.

Tests were unmonitored.

Tests were multiple choice and true-false.

Tests were not changed from semester to semester.

 

The reason this came to light was because academic advisors and tutors, hired by FSU athletic department did two things:  Had students take the test for other students.  Gave students answers to the tests.  One athlete reported the problem by telling someone in the athletic department he didn't have to take a test; the academic advisor had someone take it for him and he knew that was wrong and didn't want to get in trouble for it..  Otherwise, it might not have ever been noticed.

 

I've seen the growth of web based courses.  I understand the positives behind them.  I am not opposed to web based instruction at all.  There are ways to insure academic integrity with web based courses.

 

But, I've also seen the growth of courses operated like the one I just described.  And, I suspect virtually every university and community college has courses taught very similarly.

 

I think it is disgusting.  And, I think that the people who should really be hled accountable are:  The prof who teaches the course, the department chair who allows the course, the dean of the college in which the course is taught, and the academic committee who approved the course.

 

I am confident the cheating in the course was not limited to athletes.  I'm sure many "regular students" took advantage of the way the course was structured and took the tests with answers in hand, or took the tests with friends looking over their shoulder helping, or had others take the tests for them.

 

I've been to conferences where people have said, "Look.  It's not my job to prevent cheating.  I'm teaching the material.  If they cheat, they are only hurting themselves."

 

My questions are these:

 

1.  Does your college have courses similar to the one described above?

2.  Do you think courses like this have any place in the curriculum?

3.  If the answer to #2 is "No" then how does your school prevent them from being offered?

 

 

Bret Taylor
Eustis, FL

 

John 3:30

[coolmath2]

In a message dated 12/27/2007 4:22:03 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, bret.taylor@... writes:

Here is how the cheating occurred:

 

Course was web based.

Tests were given on-line.

Tests were unmonitored.

Tests were multiple choice and true-false.

Tests were not changed from semester to semester.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

MY RESPONSE:

This type of course is a very clear invitation to cheat.  The school has, in my opinion, decided to sell grades in lieu of teaching.  One can hardly blame the students who take advantage of the invitation.  Unfortunately, most of today's students will say that this type of cheating is just fine and will have no moral or ethical problem with it.  I saw a study several years ago that said that 80% of college students had admitted to cheating -- and most didn't have a problem with it citing the excuse of "Hey, whatever you have to do to get by and compete."   Nice.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it is disgusting. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

MY RESPONSE:

Yep!  I have to agree there!

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My questions are these:

 

1.  Does your college have courses similar to the one described above?

2.  Do you think courses like this have any place in the curriculum?

3.  If the answer to #2 is "No" then how does your school prevent them from being offered?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

MY RESPONSE:

Yes, my former college does have courses like this.  Before I quit, I was on the "Academic Standards" committee that set the school's rules for things like this and it was decided that each department could set it's own rules as long as they submitted them to our committee.  That was NOT my choice and I never saw a single submission come in.  I taught hybrid online courses and ALL graded work took place in-person and ID's were checked.  I had colleagues who were not as rigorous. 

 

I took several online courses (for salary advancement units) at our sister college that specialized in "distance" learning.  I had to take in-person finals and my ID was usually not checked.  I also took an online course at CSULB and never had to do anything in-person.  Anyone could have taken the course for me.  Same with online courses I've taken through Univ of Phoenix and National University.

 

Overall, I think courses like this water down a school's integrity.  I certainly didn't want my college to turn into National University...  But, that seemed to be what THEY wanted.  When I said that all exams should be taken in-person, they said that this would prevent true "distance" learners from taking the courses.  They wanted the higher enrollment -- they wanted the money. 

 

Hey, if this Coolmath thing doesn't work out for me, looks like I can hop on over to Craig's List and make a nice living taking Algebra courses for people!  (<<-- sarcastic)

 

Karen

Coolmath.com

FinanceFREAK.com

---

See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.

[Annette Hawkins]

Hi Everyone,

I am real sensitive to this conversation because the issue is "money"
and "students" not quality.  The travesty is that
quality and excellence are no longer educational goals.   When Online
math classes fill up faster than face-to-face classes and the grades are
better, something is wrong.  

Annette D. Hawkins, Ed. D.
Math Instructor
Wayne Community College
3000 Wayne Memorial Drive
Goldsboro, NC 27534

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's
character, give him power."
Abraham Lincoln

>>> "Moss, Cindy" <moss@...> 12/27/07 7:58 PM >>>
Hi Bret,
 
This is a great topic and this issue should be discussed.
 
I teach an online statistics course and next semester I will also teach
an online intermediate algebra course. All exams are proctored and
students must bring in a photo id. I have the exams weighted at 50% and
the final at 20%. They also must have an average of 70% on the exams and
final (weighted) in order to pass. Hopefully this will prevent cheating
but of course someone could bring in a fake id. I did have a student
last semester tell me she lost her id before the last exam and I let her
take the exam but insisted she have one for the final. She still did not
have one for the final so I did not let her take it. I told her that the
syllabus said photo id required not photo id required if you have one.
The dean did back me up. I gave her an incomplete until the end of
January so she would have time to get one.
 
I belong to a list serve for distance learning. Here is the link if
anyone is interested in joining.
http://lists.ecc.edu/mailman/listinfo/mathviadistance
<https://mail.smccd.edu/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://lists.ecc.edu/mailman/listinfo/mathviadistance>
 We cover all topics including this one.
 
Cindy Moss
Skyline College

________________________________

From: owner-mathedcc@... on behalf of Bret Taylor
Sent: Thu 12/27/2007 4:22 PM
To: mathedcc@...
Subject: An education question, not just math.


Anybody who is a college football fan knows that Florida State is in
trouble because of massive cheating in  Music History course.  When the
story first borke, last summer, I immediately suspected it was far more
of an academic problem, not just a cheating scandal for athletes.
 
Here is how the cheating occurred:
 
Course was web based.
Tests were given on-line.
Tests were unmonitored.
Tests were multiple choice and true-false.
Tests were not changed from semester to semester.
 
The reason this came to light was because academic advisors and tutors,
hired by FSU athletic department did two things:  Had students take the
test for other students.  Gave students answers to the tests.  One
athlete reported the problem by telling someone in the athletic
department he didn't have to take a test; the academic advisor had
someone take it for him and he knew that was wrong and didn't want to
get in trouble for it..  Otherwise, it might not have ever been noticed.
 
I've seen the growth of web based courses.  I understand the positives
behind them.  I am not opposed to web based instruction at all.  There
are ways to insure academic integrity with web based courses.
 
But, I've also seen the growth of courses operated like the one I just
described.  And, I suspect virtually every university and community
college has courses taught very similarly.
 
I think it is disgusting.  And, I think that the people who should
really be hled accountable are:  The prof who teaches the course, the
department chair who allows the course, the dean of the college in which
the course is taught, and the academic committee who approved the
course.
 
I am confident the cheating in the course was not limited to athletes.
I'm sure many "regular students" took advantage of the way the course
was structured and took the tests with answers in hand, or took the
tests with friends looking over their shoulder helping, or had others
take the tests for them.
 
I've been to conferenceto prevent cheating.  I'm teaching the material.  If they cheat, they
are only hurting themselves."
 
My questions are these:
 
1.  Does your college have courses similar to the one described above?
2.  Do you think courses like this have any place in the curriculum?
3.  If the answer to #2 is "No" then how does your school prevent them
from being offered?
 
 

Bret Taylor
Eustis, FL
 
John 3:30

4̄Mail correspondence to and from this sender may be subject to the
North Carolina public records law and may be disclosed to third parties.

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[wmackey]

Karen, et al,

Of course it is disgusting.  I've been hollering about this for years.  
  Grades have no meaning for many courses anyway (see chapter 5 of  
Beyond Crossroads) but giving an unmonitored test as part of the grade  
is even worse.  A couple of weeks before the Florida State scandal  
broke the same thing happened to the U.S. Army.  They have been giving  
on-line tests to non-coms for promotion points.  Needless to say there  
has been a brisk market in answers.  I think it is wonderful that  
someone got caught.  If a school give someone a degree based on  
on-line test grades, it should be marked with an asterik.  There is  
nothing at all wrong with giving a take-home test to a class of upper  
division majors in the subject but for a required course like algebra  
it is downright fraudulent.  If your school is doing it take it upon  
yourself to advertise that the grades are only purchased, not earned.

wayne

Quoting CoolMath2@...:

> In a message dated 12/27/2007 4:22:03 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
> bret.taylor@... writes:
>
> Here is how the cheating occurred:
>
> Course was web based.
> Tests were given on-line.
> Tests were unmonitored.
> Tests were multiple choice and  true-false.
> Tests were not changed from semester to  semester.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------
>
> MY RESPONSE:
> This type of course is a very clear invitation to cheat.  The school  has, in
> my opinion, decided to sell grades in lieu of teaching.  One can  hardly
> blame the students who take advantage of the invitation.    
> Unfortunately, most of
> today's students will say that this type of cheating is  just fine and will
> have no moral or ethical problem with it.  I saw a study  several  
> years ago that
> said that 80% of college students had admitted to  cheating -- and most
> didn't have a problem with it citing the excuse of "Hey,  whatever  
> you have to do
> to get by and compete."   Nice.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------
>
>
>
> I think it is disgusting.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------
>
> MY RESPONSE:
> Yep!  I have to agree there!
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------
>
>
>
>
> My questions are these:
>
> 1.  Does your college have courses similar  to the one described above?
> 2.  Do you think courses like this have any  place in the curriculum?
> 3.  If the answer to #2 is "No" then how  does your school prevent them from
> being  offered?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------
>
>
> MY RESPONSE:
> Yes, my former college does have courses like this.  Before I quit, I  was on
> the "Academic Standards" committee that set the school's rules for things
> like this and it was decided that each department could set it's own rules as
> long as they submitted them to our committee.  That was NOT my choice and I
> never saw a single submission come in.  I taught hybrid online  
> courses and  ALL
> graded work took place in-person and ID's were checked.  I had    
> colleagues who
> were not as rigorous.
>
> I took several online courses (for salary advancement units) at our sister
> college that specialized in "distance" learning.  I had to take in-person
> finals and my ID was usually not checked.  I also took an online  
> course at  CSULB
> and never had to do anything in-person.  Anyone could have taken the  course
> for me.  Same with online courses I've taken through Univ of Phoenix  and
> National University.
>
> Overall, I think courses like this water down a school's integrity.   I
> certainly didn't want my college to turn into National    
> University...  But, that
> seemed to be what THEY wanted.  When I  said that all exams should be taken
> in-person, they said that this would prevent  true "distance"  
> learners from taking
> the courses.  They wanted the  higher enrollment -- they wanted the money.
>
> Hey, if this Coolmath thing doesn't work out for me, looks like I can hop  on
> over to Craig's List and make a nice living taking Algebra courses for
> people!  (<<-- sarcastic)
>
> Karen
> Coolmath.com
> FinanceFREAK.com
>
>
>
> **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
> (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
>

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[Tim Chappell]

Thanks, Bret, for broaching the subject.  At Penn Valley, we turn a number of students away when we tell them about our testing policy for online math classes.  The tests are proctored at our campus testing center or at another college testing center.  In order to make a C or higher, the students must earn at least 68% average on the proctored tests.  I will be expanding the number of tests this semester with half the tests taken online using MathZone and half the tests proctored.  I haven't worked out my weighting strategy completely yet, but there's time.  It's not even 2008 yet!

Our district has classes that could be (as if they aren't) passed with minimal effort from students.  We do have distance education meetings, but most of the focus is----you might have guessed it----how we can test online.

Tim
--


>>> "Bret Taylor" <bret.taylor@...> 12/27/07 6:22 PM >>>
Anybody who is a college football fan knows that Florida State is in trouble because of massive cheating in  Music History course.  When the story first borke, last summer, I immediately suspected it was far more of an academic problem, not just a cheating scandal for athletes.

Here is how the cheating occurred:

Course was web based.
Tests were given on-line.
Tests were unmonitored.
Tests were multiple choice and true-false.
Tests were not changed from semester to semester.

The reason this came to light was because academic advisors and tutors, hired by FSU athletic department did two things:  Had students take the test for other students.  Gave students answers to the tests.  One athlete reported the problem by telling someone in the athletic department he didn't have to take a test; the academic advisor had someone take it for him and he knew that was wrong and didn't want to get in trouble for it..  Otherwise, it might not have ever been noticed.

I've seen the growth of web based courses.  I understand the positives behind them.  I am not opposed to web based instruction at all.  There are ways to insure academic integrity with web based courses.

But, I've also seen the growth of courses operated like the one I just described.  And, I suspect virtually every university and community college has courses taught very similarly.

I think it is disgusting.  And, I think that the people who should really be hled accountable are:  The prof who teaches the course, the department chair who allows the course, the dean of the college in which the course is taught, and the academic committee who approved the course.

I am confident the cheating in the course was not limited to athletes.  I'm sure many "regular students" took advantage of the way the course was structured and took the tests with answers in hand, or took the tests with friends looking over their shoulder helping, or had others take the tests for them.

I've been to conferences where people have said, "Look.  It's not my job to prevent cheating.  I'm teaching the material.  If they cheat, they are only hurting themselves."

My questions are these:

1.  Does your college have courses similar to the one described above?
2.  Do you think courses like this have any place in the curriculum?
3.  If the answer to #2 is "No" then how does your school prevent them from being offered?



Bret Taylor
Eustis, FL

John 3:30
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[Laura Bracken]

Interesting discussion.

I wonder if upper division math majors are really more trustworthy than freshmen or if it is just more difficult to find the answers to copy or to find someone willing to share their work.

I also wonder how we reconcile any attempt to regulate assessment with our freedom/responsibility to teach our classes in the best way we know how and to allow our colleagues to do the same.  If we regulate the "scoundrel" that runs a slipshod grade factory by telling him that he must have proctored tests, what might someone else tell us that we have to do?  

I work at a 4-year school; 60%+ of our students must take developmental math.  We have a lot of standard practices across developmental math sections -- common final, common objectives, common book, common list of skills that must be tested with "mastery skill quizzes," common weighting for final semester grades. I think we are comfortable with all this stuff because most of us have teaching credentials and have worked at some point in junior high or high school.  

But there is no support for having common finals or common anything else specified in college-level courses (although profs use the same book to save the students money).  It is an old and successful model, the teacher in his classroom (or in his rooms at Oxford), teaching and assessing his students in his way.

Of course, saying "I won't do it" and having the majority of your colleagues say the same thing is much easier when you have a tenured permanent position.  None of my colleagues who teach developmental math at my school are tenured.  Most of us have one-year "lecturer" positions -- I'm going to be first year faculty for the rest of my life. It looks to me like the future may well bring a steady erosion in tenure track positions in publically funded higher education.

By the way, I taught a two credit elementary alg on line this fall (it takes two semesters to finish elem. alg) and my students had to complete 20 graded assignments (some were on Eduspace; others were faxed or scanned to me), 15 proctored mastery skill quizzes, 3 proctored unit tests, and 1 proctored final.  If I had not imposed these requirements, the section would have been filled by on-campus students looking for an easier ride rather than the rural residents or shift workers that it is designed for.  

The success rate was way below my on-campus classes but I attribute that primarily to the magic thinking assumption by students that they can learn the material and do the homework for all their on-line classes after the kids go to bed.  (Picture a woman with four children married to a guy who works for the Forest Service; they live three+ hours from campus on bad roads in the winter time, can only access the Internet by satellite, money is tight, and babysitters are hard to find.  Or a guy who is working 50 hours a week at two different jobs that are sixty miles apart.)  It is amazing how many of them do manage to move forward towards their degree under very difficult circumstances.

--Laura
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[coolmath2]

In a message dated 12/28/2007 6:09:46 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, bracken@... writes:

I wonder if upper division math majors are really more trustworthy than freshmen or if it is just more difficult to find the answers to copy or to find someone willing to share their work.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

MY RESPONSE:

 

They are not.

 

I witnessed an appalling amount of cheating going on during my grad school days (daze).  The biggest offender was my first office partner (we were both teaching associates).  He was one of the ring leaders... Yes, he got caught...  The school did nothing to him (except for moving him out of my office)...  The cheater is now teaching at a community college -- no doubt very tenured and very lazy.

 

How nice.  How lucky his students must feel.

 

I blame the school that did nothing to him when they caught him!!

 

Karen

Coolmath.com

FinanceFREAK.com

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See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter.

[Alain Schremmer]

On Dec 28, 2007, at 7:29 PM, wmackey wrote:

> Karen, et al,
>
> Of course it is disgusting.  I've been hollering about this for  
> years.  Grades have no meaning for many courses anyway (see chapter  
> 5 of Beyond Crossroads) but giving an unmonitored test as part of  
> the grade is even worse.  A couple of weeks before the Florida  
> State scandal broke the same thing happened to the U.S. Army.  They  
> have been giving on-line tests to non-coms for promotion points.  
> Needless to say there has been a brisk market in answers.  I think  
> it is wonderful that someone got caught.  If a school give someone  
> a degree based on on-line test grades, it should be marked with an  
> asterik.  There is nothing at all wrong with giving a take-home  
> test to a class of upper division majors in the subject but for a  
> required course like algebra it is downright fraudulent.  If your  
> school is doing it take it upon yourself to advertise that the  
> grades are only purchased, not earned.

1) I don't see the difference between memorizing "minus a minus is a  
plus" and memorizing that the answer to question 13 is d.

        In particular, I don't see why "[t]here is nothing at all wrong with  
giving a take-home test to a class of upper division majors in the  
subject  but for a required course like algebra it is downright  
fraudulent."

2) Given the huge pressure of these past thirty or forty years to  
"trust the leaders / experts", I don't see what is wrong with  
students hiring experts to take the exam.

        The above "scandalous practices" are not really that different from  
our own, if only because, when all is said and done, we do more or  
less exactly the same. For instance, we chortle with derision—or  
deplore with angst—the lack of logic among our students but I have  
yet to see on this list a serious discussion of how a presentation  
relying on the inner logic of the subject matter could proceed. We  
merely share tricks that are supposed to illuminate how to do #13. We  
too rely on the experts.

Regards
--schremmer

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