ANNOUNCE: Catalyst::Devel 1.07 and Catalyst::Manual 5.7012 released to CPAN

[Kieren Diment-2]

The catalystarati would like to announce that new versions of  
Catalyst::Devel and Catalyst::Runtime have been released to CPAN.

The important changes to Catalyst::Devel are:

1.  Config::General .conf files are generated by catalyst.pl instead  
of yaml.  If you want to use yaml or any other supported config  
format, please do.  However there are good reasons for not using yaml  
by default.  Purl, as always knows best:

10:35 <@kd> purl, yaml in pod?
10:35 <@purl> i think yaml in pod is like providing your users with  
pre loaded
               shotgun aimed at their foot

Translation:  pod and YAML are both whitespace dependent in subtly  
different ways that interact in a manner which  is confusing for new  
users.

2.  The catalyst.pl helper and the myapp_create.pl controller helper  
now creates default : Path and index : Path :Args(0) subs instead of  
the old : Private subs.  Using these with : Private attribs will  
still work, but : Path attribs are more consistent with the rest of  
the dispatcher behaviour.

The important changes to Catalyst::Manual are:

1.  It's been updated to be consistent with the above changes to  
Catalyst::Devel

2.  The authentication tutorial has been updated to use the new auth  
API.

3.  There is a new HTML::FormFU tutorial, and the stub for a  
FormBuilder tutorial.

4.  The reference implementation of the tutorials have also been  
updated.

Very big thanks to Kennedy Clark for the work he's done on this.

The tests for both these these modules are pretty thin (there are  
actually pretty good reasons for this), so please let us know of any  
problems ASAP.

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[Bill Moseley]

On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 08:37:38PM +1000, Kieren Diment wrote:
>
> Translation:  pod and YAML are both whitespace dependent in subtly  
> different ways that interact in a manner which  is confusing for new  
> users.

Yes, whitespace issues in YAML can be frustrating.  Can you give an
example of a case where POD and YAML were causing new users confusion?



--
Bill Moseley
moseley@...
Sent from my iMutt


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[Aristotle Pagaltzis]

* Bill Moseley <moseley@...> [2008-06-03 16:40]:
> Can you give an example of a case where POD and YAML were
> causing new users confusion?

See <27438E31-CD64-4958-A0EF-81BB66DA49E1@...> and
subsequent thread for previous discussion of the issue; archived at
http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@.../msg03096.html

Regards,
--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

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[Octavian Rasnita-2]

From: "Bill Moseley" <moseley@...>
> Yes, whitespace issues in YAML can be frustrating.  Can you give an
> example of a case where POD and YAML were causing new users confusion?

YAML is hard to understand for a blind developer because if he arrows up or
down the  text, he hears the current line spoken, but he doesn't know how
many spaces  is that line indented.
YAML is useful only visually, but not all  the programmers can see, so from
this point of view, other configuration modules are better.

Octavian


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[Marcus Ramberg-4]

On 3. juni. 2008, at 21.03, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> From: "Bill Moseley" <moseley@...>
>> Yes, whitespace issues in YAML can be frustrating.  Can you give an
>> example of a case where POD and YAML were causing new users  
>> confusion?
>
> YAML is hard to understand for a blind developer because if he  
> arrows up or down the  text, he hears the current line spoken, but  
> he doesn't know how many spaces  is that line indented.
> YAML is useful only visually, but not all  the programmers can see,  
> so from this point of view, other configuration modules are better.

Does that mean it's impossible to code python if you are blind?

Marcus

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[Jonathan Rockway]

* On Tue, Jun 03 2008, Marcus Ramberg wrote:

> On 3. juni. 2008, at 21.03, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
>
>> From: "Bill Moseley" <moseley@...>
>>> Yes, whitespace issues in YAML can be frustrating.  Can you give an
>>> example of a case where POD and YAML were causing new users
>>> confusion?
>>
>> YAML is hard to understand for a blind developer because if he
>> arrows up or down the  text, he hears the current line spoken, but
>> he doesn't know how many spaces  is that line indented.
>> YAML is useful only visually, but not all  the programmers can see,
>> so from this point of view, other configuration modules are better.
>
> Does that mean it's impossible to code python if you are blind?

Theoretically you can use a Braille TTY.

Regards,
Jonathan Rockway

--
print just => another => perl => hacker => if $,=$"

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[Octavian Rasnita-2]

From: "Marcus Ramberg" <marcus@...>

>>> example of a case where POD and YAML were causing new users  
>>> confusion?
>>
>> YAML is hard to understand for a blind developer because if he  
>> arrows up or down the  text, he hears the current line spoken, but  
>> he doesn't know how many spaces  is that line indented.
>> YAML is useful only visually, but not all  the programmers can see,  
>> so from this point of view, other configuration modules are better.
>
> Does that mean it's impossible to code python if you are blind?
>
> Marcus

Nothing is impossible, but it is much harder.
Some blind users which became blind early enough and learned to use Braille, can use a Braille display, and it is easier that way to "see" the indentation.
I can't read Braille, and a Braille display is pretty expensive anyway.

It is also possible to hear the number of spaces when using a voice synthesizer, but it is not very friendly to use a language like Python. The languages like perl, Java or C# that use blocks enclosed between { and } are much more friendly.

Octavian


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[Kieren Diment-2]

On 4 Jun 2008, at 00:30, Bill Moseley wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 08:37:38PM +1000, Kieren Diment wrote:
>>
>> Translation:  pod and YAML are both whitespace dependent in subtly
>> different ways that interact in a manner which  is confusing for new
>> users.
>
> Yes, whitespace issues in YAML can be frustrating.  Can you give an
> example of a case where POD and YAML were causing new users confusion?
>
>

Well, accessability issues aside, when you put yaml in pod, you pad  
each line with spaces in order to provide a verbatim section in the  
pod.  Firstly different people use different levels of spacing, so  
some people pad with 1 space, some pad with more.  I think most pod  
translators pad these verbatim sections with spaces as well, and I  
think that the padding used is variable, and dependent on what  
translator was used to render the pod.  So this is something that a  
new user has to think about which they shouldn't have to do.  And if  
they fail to remove the padding properly, then the yaml is invalid,  
and something extra that they have to think about, especially because  
yaml error messages are often arcane, and not easily picked up on the  
catalyst debug screen.

These problems then add more cognitive overhead to the configuration  
of the user's  application.  Better just to use a config file format  
that sidesteps these issues completely.

Because FormFU seems to only support YAML out of the box we had to  
work around this issue with the AdvancedCrud::FormFu tutorial, and  
you'll see a satisfactory but hacky solution at the bottom of this  
tutorial.

Of course, you're still allowed to use any config format supported by  
ConfigLoader to configure your catalyst app.

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[Carl Franks]

2008/6/4 Kieren Diment <diment@...>:
>
> Because FormFU seems to only support YAML out of the box we had to work
> around this issue with the AdvancedCrud::FormFu tutorial, and you'll see a
> satisfactory but hacky solution at the bottom of this tutorial.

FormFu uses Config::Any - so anything will do!

(It does mention that in the SYNOPSIS, but, yes the docs do need some TLC)

Carl

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[Robert L Cochran]

I have worked with blind developers in person, not just one but several,
and expect to do so again in the future. In our shop we provide them
with JAWS software and text-to-voice devices. The merely low-vision
people get powerful magnifiers and widescreen monitors. Anyhow it makes
me shudder to think of having to deal with YAML as Octavian mentions. He
is right, it is very very very hard for a blind person to work with
space-padded stuff. A language or platform shouldn't be closed off or
made impossibly difficult to handicapped individuals no matter how
bright they are -- please consider that. Let's go for solutions that
work for everyone.

Bob Cochran
Greenbelt, Maryland, USA


Octavian Rasnita wrote:

> From: "Marcus Ramberg" <marcus@...>
>  
>>>> example of a case where POD and YAML were causing new users  
>>>> confusion?
>>>>        
>>> YAML is hard to understand for a blind developer because if he  
>>> arrows up or down the  text, he hears the current line spoken, but  
>>> he doesn't know how many spaces  is that line indented.
>>> YAML is useful only visually, but not all  the programmers can see,  
>>> so from this point of view, other configuration modules are better.
>>>      
>> Does that mean it's impossible to code python if you are blind?
>>
>> Marcus
>>    
>
> Nothing is impossible, but it is much harder.
> Some blind users which became blind early enough and learned to use Braille, can use a Braille display, and it is easier that way to "see" the indentation.
> I can't read Braille, and a Braille display is pretty expensive anyway.
>
> It is also possible to hear the number of spaces when using a voice synthesizer, but it is not very friendly to use a language like Python. The languages like perl, Java or C# that use blocks enclosed between { and } are much more friendly.
>
> Octavian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
>
>
>  

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[Brad Bowman-2]

>>>> YAML is hard to understand for a blind developer because if he
>>>> arrows up or down the text, he hears the current line spoken,
>>>> but he doesn't know how many spaces is that line indented. YAML
>>>> is useful only visually, but not all the programmers can see,
>>>> so from this point of view, other configuration modules are
>>>> better.
>>>>
[..]
>> It is also possible to hear the number of spaces when using a voice
>> synthesizer, but it is not very friendly to use a language like
>> Python. The languages like perl, Java or C# that use blocks
>> enclosed between { and } are much more friendly.

YAML, the format, supports "flow" style collections which
use {} and [], as JSON does.  

  http://yaml.org/spec/1.2/#id2589867

I don't think Perl's YAML modules support emitting in this style yet,
although you may be able to hand-write YAML this way.

Brad

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[Octavian Rasnita-2]

From: "Brad Bowman" <list@...>>

>>>>> YAML is hard to understand for a blind developer because if he
>>>>> arrows up or down the text, he hears the current line spoken,
>>>>> but he doesn't know how many spaces is that line indented. YAML
>>>>> is useful only visually, but not all the programmers can see,
>>>>> so from this point of view, other configuration modules are
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
> [..]
>>> It is also possible to hear the number of spaces when using a voice
>>> synthesizer, but it is not very friendly to use a language like
>>> Python. The languages like perl, Java or C# that use blocks
>>> enclosed between { and } are much more friendly.
>
> YAML, the format, supports "flow" style collections which
> use {} and [], as JSON does.  
>
>  http://yaml.org/spec/1.2/#id2589867
>
> I don't think Perl's YAML modules support emitting in this style yet,
> although you may be able to hand-write YAML this way.
>
> Brad
>

The problem is that if another person uses yaml, he probably won't use that style, so if a blind programmer would need to read it later, it would be hard to understand it.
If Catalyst recommends another type of configuration file, that new type has more chances to be used more and more in the new apps.

Octavian



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[Brad Bowman-2]

Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> From: "Brad Bowman" <list@...>>
[..]

>>>>>> YAML is hard to understand for a blind developer because if he
>>>>>> arrows up or down the text, he hears the current line spoken,
>>>>>> but he doesn't know how many spaces is that line indented. YAML
>>>>>> is useful only visually, but not all the programmers can see,
>>>>>> so from this point of view, other configuration modules are
>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>
>> [..]
>>>> It is also possible to hear the number of spaces when using a voice
>>>> synthesizer, but it is not very friendly to use a language like
>>>> Python. The languages like perl, Java or C# that use blocks
>>>> enclosed between { and } are much more friendly.

 >>

>> YAML, the format, supports "flow" style collections which
>> use {} and [], as JSON does.  
>>
>>  http://yaml.org/spec/1.2/#id2589867
>>
>> I don't think Perl's YAML modules support emitting in this style yet,
>> although you may be able to hand-write YAML this way.
>>
>>
> The problem is that if another person uses yaml, he probably won't use that
> style, so if a blind programmer would need to read it later, it would be
> hard to understand it.

I had hoped that you could inter-convert between flow and block styles
using existing tools but was only able to Load YAML and save to
YAML compatible JSON.  (This may be preferable for use with a screen reader).

Ideally, you could convert to flow style without losing comments or ordering
information that tends to be discarded by the full serialize/deserialize
round-trip.

I asked on the yaml-core about this and they confirmed that while YAML
can be represented entirely in flow style, the current implementations
have only patchy support for it, but that it shouldn't be too hard for
them to add.

> If Catalyst recommends another type of configuration
> file, that new type has more chances to be used more and more in the new
> apps.

Sure.  Hopefully the YAML tools will catch up with the spec and provide
screen-reader friendly options for other YAML you may encounter,

Brad

--
   A straw hat or helmet should be worn tilted toward the front.
                        -- Hagakure http://bereft.net/hagakure/

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