Nabble - AIDA/Web

Re: Partial port on Smalltalk/X

2008-05-12T10:31:49Z

Thanks for the update!

Though only partial, do you know if I should be able to expect to make something "work" to try it out?

Thanks again! Very exciting!

Rob

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@...> wrote:

Dear all,

James Hayes did a partial port of Sport, Swazoo and Aida to Smalltalk/X:

ftp://ftp.eranova.si/aida/aida-stx-partial.tar.gz

Jaroslav Havlin from Technical university in Prague offered help and he
will soon continue his work so that ST/X will be supported too.

Thanks you both for that!

Best regards
Janko

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Partial port on Smalltalk/X

2008-05-12T09:06:16Z

Dear all,

James Hayes did a partial port of Sport, Swazoo and Aida to Smalltalk/X:

ftp://ftp.eranova.si/aida/aida-stx-partial.tar.gz

Jaroslav Havlin from Technical university in Prague offered help and he
will soon continue his work so that ST/X will be supported too.

Thanks you both for that!

Best regards
Janko

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Re: Localization - a proposal

2008-05-12T04:05:26Z

Rob Rothwell wrote:

> Will it still be possible to work in "non-localized" mode this way?
>
> e: addText: 'Salut'.

Yes, normal text stay same as now. You switch to "localized" text when
you change it into an association. And you can do that later when you
need, which is also an advantage of this approach. You can start with
usual text in the code and later just change it to the association and
voila, your app is internationalized!

> Or, could you set a default association:
>
> e defaultLanguage: #fr
>
> Or better yet
>
> MyApp defaultLanguage: #fr
>
> Which would signal elements to use the #fr association for any
> non-specified language reference?

I wouldn't complicate much further. If you don't have that text
associations, your text is simply part of your code. In any language you
wish. But when a need arises to support more than one language, you need
to upgrade that text to associations. And this upgrade is simple.

Janko

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Re: Localization - a proposal

2008-05-12T03:38:59Z

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 6:21 AM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@...> wrote:

That's it, a proposal, now it is turn on you for comments.

Will it still be possible to work in "non-localized" mode this way?

e: addText: 'Salut'.

Or, could you set a default association:

e defaultLanguage: #fr

Or better yet

MyApp defaultLanguage: #fr

Which would signal elements to use the #fr association for any non-specified language reference?

Just wondering...

Rob

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Localization - a proposal

2008-05-12T03:21:36Z

Dear all,

With Nico we just had a long IRC brainstorming about how to do
localization support in Aida. Here is the proposal:

e addText: #fr->'Salut'

So, all texts are added as associations with initial language as a key
and text in that language as value. Such association then implies that
this text can be later shown in many languages as soon as translations
are provided.

And how will translations be done?

In two ways: in-line directly on the web page or in special web app with
the translation table. In-line will be preferable for translators,
because they will see the complete context in which the text resides.

Scope of i18 texts:

Question is how to do translations of apps wich are usually made of
reusable web elements/components. Shall we provide some global message
catalog as is in case of GetText? Such a global catalog is hard to
maintain if there is a lot of text. But it avoids duplicates. Our
proposal is not to have global but a local message catalogs, one per
each element generating method in WebComponent/WebApp. Yes, there will
be a lot of duplication of translations that way but this is still much
simpler to translate and maintain than some global catalog. Also keep in
mind that we translate reusable components, which will reduce duplicate
translation work at the end.

Where are translations stored?

By default directly in class methods of each WebApp or WebComponent
subclass in a protocol 'translations'. This approach is similar to
method images, that is images directly in methods and have the same
advantages - translations can be stored together with the code in
version systems. Later we can add some WebTranslations class (like
WebStyle).

That's it, a proposal, now it is turn on you for comments.

Janko

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Localization

2008-05-11T12:14:46Z

Janko,

I thougth about your idea.

Inline editing is more complex than it looks like because of Aida
structure (components, webstyle, etc), so I would leave it for later.

For symbols, I don't know if it's a good idea, because it's not obvious
at all, and it will be very tricky and intrusive! I would instead use
something like:

self translate: #welcome

and then we keep the symbol, and at least you immediately know what's
going on (I'm thinking about newcommers).

For storing, I would do as we do for css in WebStyle, ie use a
convention. For example in a WebApp class, all methods beginning with
translation are translating methods, then follows the language, and then
the view name. For example:

#translateFrMain for the translation in french of view main
#translateDeEdit for the translation in deutch of view edit

and each translation method would return an collexion, like this:

#translateFrMain
^(#welcome 'Bienvenue'
#login 'Connexion'
#bye 'A bientot'
#logout 'Déconnexion')

This way translations are easy to write and maintain.

What do you think?

Nico
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Re: Aida-Localization

2008-05-11T11:45:58Z

Janko,

I see a limit to your idea:
How do you translate strings coming from the style (navigation bar,
etc)? You'll have to duplicate translations for each view of each app?

nico

Le dimanche 11 mai 2008 à 17:41 +0200, Janko Mivšek a écrit :

> Janko Mivšek wrote:
>
> > 3. in-line editing (in admin mode) of such text for each view to make
> > translation in different languages. This will be as simple as
> > possible for translators to make such translation.
>
> Let me explain this idea a bit further. Idea is to edit text directly on
> a page (but also separately in some special view). Ok, this special view
> is a standard table of all texts and their translations. But such table
> is optional while main means to edit text is directly on the page. That
> is, you simply click the text and edit it directly on its position of
> the page.
>
> Main advantage of in-line editing/translating is that you better see the
> context of each text among other on the page. This leads to better and
> more exact translations.
>
> Achieving such editing may be technically challenging but it is worth
> effort, that's I'm sure!
>
> Janko
>

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Re: Aida-Localization

2008-05-11T10:35:50Z

Michael Rueger wrote:

>> 1. use symbols instead of string for any text, for example:
>> a addText: #welcome instead of a addText: 'Welcome'
>> 2. store language mappings for each view of each App and not globally
>> for a whole site
>
> What I thought about for localization (for UIs) was to use strings, but
> allow for scoping.
> Just as an idea:
>
> '#fr.#appContext.the string to translate with %arg1' printf: {123. }
>
> and then look up the translation by original language (fr) and context
> (appContext). The extra (optional?) language parameter would allow to
> have the original strings in languages other then English.
>
> I generally don't like to have any data in methods, be it images or
> translation dictionaries. Doubles the needed space and bloats source
> code repositories.

Michael, can you provide an example how would you do that in Smalltalk
or Aida case?

Janko

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Re: Aida-Localization

2008-05-11T10:28:05Z

Janko Mivšek wrote:

> Hi Nico,
>
> I'm thinking about localization for a long time, that is, how to do it
> as simply as possible, otherwise we will soon "degrade" back to putting
> texts directly to the code as it is the case now.
>
> My proposal in few words:
>
> 1. use symbols instead of string for any text, for example:
> a addText: #welcome instead of a addText: 'Welcome'
> 2. store language mappings for each view of each App and not globally
> for a whole site

What I thought about for localization (for UIs) was to use strings, but
allow for scoping.
Just as an idea:

'#fr.#appContext.the string to translate with %arg1' printf: {123. }

and then look up the translation by original language (fr) and context
(appContext). The extra (optional?) language parameter would allow to
have the original strings in languages other then English.

I generally don't like to have any data in methods, be it images or
translation dictionaries. Doubles the needed space and bloats source
code repositories.

Michael
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Re: Aida-Localization

2008-05-11T08:41:51Z

Janko Mivšek wrote:

> 3. in-line editing (in admin mode) of such text for each view to make
> translation in different languages. This will be as simple as
> possible for translators to make such translation.

Let me explain this idea a bit further. Idea is to edit text directly on
a page (but also separately in some special view). Ok, this special view
is a standard table of all texts and their translations. But such table
is optional while main means to edit text is directly on the page. That
is, you simply click the text and edit it directly on its position of
the page.

Main advantage of in-line editing/translating is that you better see the
context of each text among other on the page. This leads to better and
more exact translations.

Achieving such editing may be technically challenging but it is worth
effort, that's I'm sure!

Janko

--
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AIDA/Web
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Re: Aida-Localization

2008-05-11T08:32:29Z

Hi Nico,

I'm thinking about localization for a long time, that is, how to do it
as simply as possible, otherwise we will soon "degrade" back to putting
texts directly to the code as it is the case now.

My proposal in few words:

1. use symbols instead of string for any text, for example:
a addText: #welcome instead of a addText: 'Welcome'
2. store language mappings for each view of each App and not globally
for a whole site
3. in-line editing (in admin mode) of such text for each view to make
translation in different languages. This will be as simple as
possible for translators to make such translation.
4. also a traditional edit table of texts and translations, but again
per view per App

I think this way we can make localization of page texts really simple
and user friendly, both for us programmers and end users.

Nico, I tried your proposal many years ago (see WebMsgs, the remains of
that try) and it didn't work. First reason is that is too hard to
program - to enter a text on pages, another is that WebMsgs was a global
(site) catalog and it soon expanded and become hard to maintain. Another
problem is where to store such catalogs. Maybe in methods too, as we are
doing with method images?

Best regards
JAnko

Nicolas Petton wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I started a to work on a localization support for Aida.
> It's available at: http://mc.bioskop.fr/AidaLocalization
>
> It's quite simple for now: AIDASite has a #preferedLanguage accessor
> which return a symbol (by default #en), and has a translator, an
> instance of AIDATranslator.
>
> A translator knows how to translate a sentence:
>
> (AIDASite named: 'aidademo') translator addTranslation:
> ('Hello'->'Bonjour') language: #fr
>
> then
>
> (AIDASite named: 'aidademo') translator translate: 'Hello' to: #fr
>>>> 'Bonjour'
>
> in views we can translate a sentence with:
>
> self translate: aString
>
> for example:
>
> #viewMain
> | e |
> e := WebElement new.
> self title: (self translate: 'Hello').
> e addTextH1: self title.
> self pageFrameWith: e title: self title
>
> if the corresponding translation is not found, the string is just
> returned.
>
> Finally, we can change the language of a site with:
>
> (AIDASite named: 'aidademo') preferedLanguage: #fr
>
> And all translations are stored in a dictionary in a class variable, so
> each translator (one per site) knows all available translations.
>
> It's already working, but could certainly be improved.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Nico

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Aida-Localization

2008-05-11T07:43:57Z

Hi all,

I started a to work on a localization support for Aida.
It's available at: http://mc.bioskop.fr/AidaLocalization

It's quite simple for now: AIDASite has a #preferedLanguage accessor
which return a symbol (by default #en), and has a translator, an
instance of AIDATranslator.

A translator knows how to translate a sentence:

(AIDASite named: 'aidademo') translator addTranslation:
('Hello'->'Bonjour') language: #fr

then

(AIDASite named: 'aidademo') translator translate: 'Hello' to: #fr
>>>'Bonjour'

in views we can translate a sentence with:

self translate: aString

for example:

#viewMain
| e |
e := WebElement new.
self title: (self translate: 'Hello').
e addTextH1: self title.
self pageFrameWith: e title: self title

if the corresponding translation is not found, the string is just
returned.

Finally, we can change the language of a site with:

(AIDASite named: 'aidademo') preferedLanguage: #fr

And all translations are stored in a dictionary in a class variable, so
each translator (one per site) knows all available translations.

It's already working, but could certainly be improved.

Cheers!

Nico
--
Nicolas Petton
http://nico.bioskop.fr
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OOOOOOOOO
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OOOOOOOOO
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--------------------------------
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Re: Starting a Site in a Development Package

2008-05-10T20:51:12Z

On 5/10/08, Nicolas Petton <petton.nicolas@...> wrote:

I just checked, and I was completely wrong, s.a.u integration is already
committed.

Yea...I think you did that around v36 or 37...!

Rob

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Re: Starting a Site in a Development Package

2008-05-10T20:48:54Z

On 5/10/08, Nicolas Petton <petton.nicolas@...> wrote:

Oops, this is a stupid bug, it's fixed in Aida5.6-np.49.mcz

Cheers!

Thanks...it started right up!

Rob

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Re: Starting a Site in a Development Package

2008-05-10T20:12:00Z

I just checked, and I was completely wrong, s.a.u integration is already
committed.

Nico
--
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Re: Starting a Site in a Development Package

2008-05-10T20:04:13Z

Le samedi 10 mai 2008 à 20:45 -0400, Rob Rothwell a écrit :
> Just wondering what I am missing when trying to use Nico's development
> package Aida5.6-np.48.mcz (I thought some of the Scriptaculous stuff
> might be fun to play with).

Hi Rob,

Scriptaculous integration is not committed yet. I will do it shortly.
>
> When I load it into a clean image and try
> SwazooAida demoStart
>
> then go to the site in a browser, I get
> MessageNotUnderstood: AIDASite>>defaultUserService.
>
> I get the same results when trying to create a site manually.
>

Oops, this is a stupid bug, it's fixed in Aida5.6-np.49.mcz

Cheers!

Nico
--
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Starting a Site in a Development Package

2008-05-10T17:45:52Z

Just wondering what I am missing when trying to use Nico's development package Aida5.6-np.48.mcz (I thought some of the Scriptaculous stuff might be fun to play with).

When I load it into a clean image and try
SwazooAida demoStart

then go to the site in a browser, I get
MessageNotUnderstood: AIDASite>>defaultUserService.

I get the same results when trying to create a site manually.

What is the difference between the stable Aida 5.6 and the development image in this regard? Is there something new I need to do to start I site?

Thanks,

Rob

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Re: Question about Aida vs Seaside

2008-05-10T12:13:36Z

Le samedi 10 mai 2008 à 10:47 -0400, Rob Rothwell a écrit :

> Sure...I think best "out loud" around other people, so I hope you
> don't mind going "back and forth!"
>
> I don't think I can call myself a compete Smalltalk "novice" anymore,
> though I still feel like it compared with everyone else out there. My
> programming experience is purely procedural: Assembly, VisualBasic,
> etc..., but I was always trying to do Smalltalk-ish stuff. It has
> taken me a LONG time to be able to do "useful work."
>
> Also keep in mind that I COMPLETELY missed the web-programming
> movement while I was in the Army. I have NO experience with HTML,
> CSS, Javascript, etc, etc, etc...
>
> With that in mind, I found Seaside challenging because it builds on
> your [pre-existing] web knowledge.
>
> Aida, in my mind, is much "simpler" in this regard, or at least more
> "abstract." I could actually (for the most part) "figure it out" by
> browsing the classes and the WebDemoApp methods.
>
> The idea of "naming conventions" confused me at first about Aida--you
> MUST have a domain object (MyObject) that is the domain model for your
> application (MyObjectApp). Starting and stopping your site is a bit
> rough, and styling your site can be confusing. I can change the style
> now, but am no good at CSS, so I am limited in what I can change.
>
> For Squeak, Nicolas is doing some great Scriptaculous work
> (http://nico.bioskop.fr/).

It's not only for Squeak, but for the next Aida release (6.0) in
general. So it will be available for Squeak, VW and Gemstone/S :)

Cheers!

Nico
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Re: Question about Aida vs Seaside

2008-05-10T07:47:03Z

Sure...I think best "out loud" around other people, so I hope you don't mind going "back and forth!"

I don't think I can call myself a compete Smalltalk "novice" anymore, though I still feel like it compared with everyone else out there. My programming experience is purely procedural: Assembly, VisualBasic, etc..., but I was always trying to do Smalltalk-ish stuff. It has taken me a LONG time to be able to do "useful work."

Also keep in mind that I COMPLETELY missed the web-programming movement while I was in the Army. I have NO experience with HTML, CSS, Javascript, etc, etc, etc...

With that in mind, I found Seaside challenging because it builds on your [pre-existing] web knowledge.

Aida, in my mind, is much "simpler" in this regard, or at least more "abstract." I could actually (for the most part) "figure it out" by browsing the classes and the WebDemoApp methods.

The idea of "naming conventions" confused me at first about Aida--you MUST have a domain object (MyObject) that is the domain model for your application (MyObjectApp). Starting and stopping your site is a bit rough, and styling your site can be confusing. I can change the style now, but am no good at CSS, so I am limited in what I can change.

For Squeak, Nicolas is doing some great Scriptaculous work (http://nico.bioskop.fr/). I found all the Ajax integration in Aida much easier to understand than in Seaside, where I just didn't have a clue what was going on. In fact, Ajax is buried at the bottom of the Aida framework, so it feels very much "built-in."

I the big reason I am using Aida is because it was "simple enough" for me. I always thought of myself as a "smart" programmer: I have a long-ago degree in Physics, and have been "programming" since I was 11. I do process improvement and Decision Support work at a hospital. But Seaside still escapes me because I am NOT a programmer, meaning I need to program to "get things done," not to write a "great program," and so Aida was a great choice for me because I could almost just sit down and get started, and Janko and the Aida community are VERY willing to help when you have a question. There are very few things I have wanted to do that they haven't been able to explain to me--usually within HOURS.

So...depending on what you are writing (I am working on basic business data-collection applications), and depending on how you feel about the CSS style guidelines, you can very quickly and read ably get many components up and running, nicely pre-wired to your domain model object(s). I mention the style guidelines only because the easiest way for me to layout forms in Aida is using tables, which does not bother me for the applications I am writing, but is apparently a big faux pas in the CSS world!

I would be happy to help any way I can; I have been given much by the Aida community and have been lax in my duties to provide more promised documentation on the Aida web site! (There are so many interlocking pieces of a good demonstration showing off the many parts of Aida that I get lost in "Scope Creep.") So...ask away, and I will answer as best I can!

Hope this is somewhat useful,

Rob

P.S. I should really figure out this IRC thing someday as well...

On 5/10/08, Germán Arduino <garduino@...> wrote:

Hi Rob:

Sorry bothering you with this question, but on IRC Janko commented me that I can ask you about your experience using Aida against Seaside.

I'm familiar with Seaside, developed several apps, but I'm interested in give a try to Aida and if you can comment you own experience, surely will be a lot useful to me.

Thanks in advance by your help.

Cheers.

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Localization

2008-05-09T16:51:17Z

Hi all,

There is currently no localization support in Aida/Web. I'm currently
working on a french site made with Scribo under Squeak, and then I have
two choices:
- Manually translate all strings in french (ouch!)
- Add #translated to all strings I want to translate and translate them
with the Squeak localization support.

Both choices are bad. I need to manually change the code.

So, I think that a localization support in Aida would be really great.
It wouldn't be very difficult, but would take some time. At the end we
could have Aida and Scribo in many languages!

What do you think?

Cheers!

Nico
--
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--------------------------------
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Re: Our group on LinkedIn

2008-05-06T03:33:17Z

On 5/6/08, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@...> wrote:

Worn out? Don't worry, this will never happen! It didn't for 12 years, it won't for many many years to come.

Ahh...the perils of email! What I meant was, maybe whatever everyone is working on has gotten quite intense (I know that to be true for myself!),
not that community enthusiasm would be lost!

Rob

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Re: Aida on Smalltalk/X

2008-05-06T03:30:48Z

On 5/6/08, Jaroslav Havlín <jaroslav.havlin@...> wrote:

Hello Rob,

as Janko said, I am going to try to port Aida/Web to Smalltalk/X, because I would like to use it as a part of my diploma work.
Unfortunately I have to finish my current school projects now, so I will start working on it probably at the beginning of July.
I will let you know as soon as I have some news.

Thanks for the information.

Let me know if there is any "grunt work" I could do to help you (I have neither a Web Server or Web Programming background)?

Rob

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Re: Aida on Smalltalk/X

2008-05-06T00:35:34Z

Hi Rob,

Smalltalk/X port of Aida is quite far already, done so far by James
Hayes, who worked with Exept in the past. Port will be finished by
Jaroslav Havlin, a student from Prague, because he will use Aida in ST/X
for his diploma work.

You can therefore confidently try Smalltalk/X too. I also like to have
Aida there, because ST/X is a good Smalltalk and it is worth our support!

Janko

Rob Rothwell wrote:

> I recently torture tested Squeak, VisualWorks, and Smalltalk/X with a
> simple but intense text file conversion utility and VisualWorks was the
> only one left standing "out of the box." That doesn't mean that the
> others are not capable, but they each have their strengths, and for a
> novice "business" programmer, VW seems good if we can afford the license.
>
> However, I am intrigued enough by Smalltalk/X for future consideration
> and wondered how hard it would be to get Aida running on it, and was
> wondering if anyone has tried yet or has some pointers. The image I
> have has some Seaside stuff in it, but Swazoo isn't even present, so I
> imagine I would need to start there!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
>
>
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>
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Re: Our group on LinkedIn

2008-05-06T00:10:04Z

Hi Rob,

Rob Rothwell wrote:

> I think we have all just gotten really busy lately! (Either that, or
> worn out).

Worn out? Don't worry, this will never happen! It didn't for 12 years,
it won't for many many years to come.

Janko

--
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AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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Aida on Smalltalk/X

2008-05-05T15:38:30Z

I recently torture tested Squeak, VisualWorks, and Smalltalk/X with a simple but intense text file conversion utility and VisualWorks was the only one left standing "out of the box." That doesn't mean that the others are not capable, but they each have their strengths, and for a novice "business" programmer, VW seems good if we can afford the license.

However, I am intrigued enough by Smalltalk/X for future consideration and wondered how hard it would be to get Aida running on it, and was wondering if anyone has tried yet or has some pointers. The image I have has some Seaside stuff in it, but Swazoo isn't even present, so I imagine I would need to start there!

Thanks,

Rob

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Re: Our group on LinkedIn

2008-05-05T15:30:42Z

On 5/5/08, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@...> wrote:

Maybe this is one more way to stay in touch, so you are kindly invited
to join the group.

Maybe...!

I think we have all just gotten really busy lately! (Either that, or worn out).

Rob

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Our group on LinkedIn

2008-05-05T13:40:22Z

Dear all,

I just opened a group on LinkedIn for all users, developers and friends
of Aida/Web and you can join here:

http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/99558/21F1A36F9694

Maybe this is one more way to stay in touch, so you are kindly invited
to join the group.

Best regards
Janko

--
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AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
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The Weekly Squeak Summary No. 18: Mar 23 - May 3, 2008

2008-05-04T23:27:18Z

Dear Squeakers,

welcome to this edition of The WeeklySqueakSummary, an irregular
traffic-dependent report on what's going on in the world of Squeak
based on the WeeklySqueak blog. This is, by the way, the first edition
that is also sent to the AIDA mailing list - thanks for the
invitation!

Highlights of the past weeks:

Hilaire Fernandes is writing a series of blog entries that introduce
Squeak specifically to educators [10]. Material of this kind is
extremely welcome and much needed!

Two announcements have come true: first, Gilad Bracha's talk on
Newspeak, which he gave at HPI in Potsdam, is now available online [7]
(some trouble with viewing have been reported, but with a recent
player and no over-zealous firewall, viewing should be no problem).
Second, the Seaside tutorial hosted at HPI has been turned into a
book, which is finally available (the first book on Seaside, yay, and
please forgive the author his personal pride) [8].

Finally, there's three technical items.

Squeak is now available on yet another platform, namely the Syllable
OS [4]. At the time of posting, only headless images were supported,
but it ran Seaside.

JavaConnect and JNIPort [12] are two projects that support
Smalltalk/Java interoperability in very elegant ways. While they are
currently available only on VisualWorks (and, as for JNIPort,
Dolphin), they set standards in terms of language/platform
connectivity.

SqueakFS [13] allows for browsing the Squeak image as a mounted file
system (on Mac OS X and Linux, using the FUSE library). The top-level
directory supports looking at the image along one of three axes: along
the class hierarchy, grouped by class category, and as a flat space
containing all classes. At present, it's read-only, but future
extensions are already being planned.

The past weeks' news items:

[1] Seaside startup snapped up
http://news.squeak.org/2008/03/28/seaside-startup-snapped-up/

[2] What's the difference?
http://news.squeak.org/2008/03/31/whats-the-difference/

[3] The Year of Smalltalk
http://news.squeak.org/2008/04/02/the-year-of-smalltalk/

[4] Squeak ported to Syllable
http://news.squeak.org/2008/04/07/squeak-ported-to-syllable/

[5] Free Smalltalk books
http://news.squeak.org/2008/04/10/free-smalltalk-books/

[6] Waveplace in the US Virgin Islands
http://news.squeak.org/2008/04/16/waveplace/

[7] Video of Newspeak lecture now available
http://news.squeak.org/2008/04/19/video-of-newspeak-lecture-now-available/

[8] "An Introduction to Seaside" now published
http://news.squeak.org/2008/04/21/an-introduction-to-seaside-now-published/

[9] Squeak Project in Google Summer of Code 2008
http://news.squeak.org/2008/04/25/squeak-summer-of-code-2008/

[10] Using Squeak in Education
http://news.squeak.org/2008/04/26/squeak-in-education/

[11] New Dabble DB Demo Debuts
http://news.squeak.org/2008/04/28/new-dabble-db-demo-debuts/

[12] Using Smalltalk with Java: JavaConnect and JNIPort
http://news.squeak.org/2008/04/30/using-smalltalk-with-java-javaconnect-and-jniport/

[13] Squeak and the filesystem
http://news.squeak.org/2008/05/02/squeak-and-the-filesystem/

You can find this and much more on The WeeklySqueak blog, the newsblog
dedicated to the world of Squeak:http://news.squeak.org/

Subscribe to the WeeklySqueak RSS feed: http://news.squeak.org/feed/

Happy squeaking,

Michael
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XSendfile

2008-04-24T13:19:22Z

Hi all,

a friend of mine working with rails pointed me to XSendfile:

http://john.guen.in/past/2007/4/17/send_files_faster_with_xsendfile/

Now that some seasiders stated that they didn't know about it I wanted
to ask on the Aida list as well if anybody has any experience with Aida
and Apache XSendfile?

Michael
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Re: Both proposed talks accepted to Smalltalk Solutions

2008-04-24T10:20:28Z

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@...> wrote:

Dear all,

Good news, both our proposed talks are accepted:

I hope someone will be interested in the problems faced by healthcare as a "case study," because I am just about the ONLY "non-technical" presentation listed!

Rob

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Both proposed talks accepted to Smalltalk Solutions

2008-04-24T09:52:59Z

Dear all,

Good news, both our proposed talks are accepted:

Rob Rothwell
Why Smalltalk? A Healthcare Perspective on Creating Internal Domain
Specific Languages
June 20, 2008 3:30 pm - 4:15 pm

The current challenge facing Healthcare is not so much a clinical
problem; rather, the challenge is a business problem. As an industry,
Healthcare stands far behind its counterpart’s ability to retrieve and
report clinical and business data for a multitude of reasons.

This presentation will use this extra-ordinary setting to explore some
of the ways in which Smalltalk is well suited to create an internal
Domain Specific Language (DSL) that can enable Healthcare organizations
to overcome the following obstacles:

• Minimal development staff
• Constantly changing reporting requirements
• Technically challenged workforce

Finally, we will discuss the emergence of the excellent tools available
(such as Squeak and Aida) which makes the creation of such DSL’s
possible for ordinary programmers willing to take the plunge.

Michael Rueger
AIDA/Scribo, a powerful CMS at your fingertips!
June 21, 2008 9:15 am - 10:00 am

AIDA/Scribo is a light-weight but full featured Content Management
System, with CMS core and blog, forum, wiki, sites, and RSS plugins.
Scribo follows Aida philosophy, so it is very easy to use, understand
and extend. Scribo runs on top of AIDA/Web, an opensource Smalltalk web
framework, which allows to write rich, complex but easily maintainable
web applications without a fuss. Presentation will show design goals,
architecture, concrete examples and future plans for both AIDA/Web and
Scribo.

So, we will be very well represented on Smalltalk Solution this year.
Thanks again Rob and Michael for your initiative!

Janko

--
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AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
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Re: Visual Studio 2008

2008-04-19T07:04:01Z

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 9:33 AM, giorgio ferraris <giorgio.ferraris@...> wrote:

Rob,
just to bring here my experience, I'm a long time smalltalker (back from 1985), andI actually work (lukily) still in smalltalk, but also on Java and c#.

I wish I had that kind of experience with Smalltalk. Unfortunately, BASIC is my "innate" language. And Assembly.

On java I mostly helped customers developing frameworks, so my java practical knowledge (hands on on tools like eclipse) is quite limited ( I know the language and I mostly use my OO experience coming from Smalltalkk usage for designing the frameworks someone else translate in code), but I'm using VisualStudio from the beginning, and I support a persistency frameworks there (clone to a smalltalk one) from several years, being it used by several huge customer.
I also develop web applications for these customer (big insurance company here in Italy) and my approach here is quite different from your. I use VS only for developing code (with resharper for refactoring), never designed a single aspx page.
As in my smalltalk applications, all of my gui (web pages...) are generated, the code create the HTML, and usually I have only an initial aspx page and a one or more .ashx page for receiving all of the ajax call and dispatching to the right method, this will give back html. Also the AJAX frameworks is my own. (using prototype/scriptacolous)

Are you using VisualStudio because of customer requirements, then, or because it has features you like? So...you designed code generation frameworks, and someone else helped you turn that into HTML? I think our "problem" is trying to get the most out of 2-3 people who are reasonably bright, but faced with LOTS of projects! So...we want to make it easy in the long term, but are feeling short term pain when it comes to building infrastructure and learning something new!

this is something I allways did in Smalltalk from years. no GUI builder tool, just code generation, this is much easier now, with CSS so powerfull and quite supported on browser. ( I do the same also for cleint/server app, gui are generated, almost never designed)

I have also cutomer that, after long time using gui tools, are now following my ideas, generating instead of designing GUI, this still in the Microsoft VisualStudio world.

Are there any advantages that the "VisualStudio world" has for you over a Smalltalk image? Do you have an easier time maintaining your code, or managing change?

So, it's not a problem of language, but a problem of how someone think about generating applications.
I'm pretty sure my way of working gave me lot of benefits, but your idea and exprerince can say the same for you too, it a question of taste. The only thing I would suggest is: try this way and then decide (also on c#, if you like)

I think you are right in that it is always easy to incrementally improve more abstract frameworks. GUI builders are nice for the "easy" stuff, but quickly leave you struggling to add something "new." You probably haven't had that problem doing it your way.

The only real difference is that on visualStudio you have the choice, here in Smalltalk you don't. But,smalltalk has so many advantages... (you will discover it if you will insist on using it for a while, first time are hard, I understand, it's a new world...)

I definitely feel like it's the right tool for the job; the learning curve is just a bit formidable!

Ciao and good luck

Thanks for the input!

Rob

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Re: Visual Studio 2008

2008-04-19T06:33:22Z

Rob,
just to bring here my experience, I'm a long time smalltalker (back from 1985), andI actually work (lukily) still in smalltalk, but also on Java and c#.
On java I mostly helped customers developing frameworks, so my java practical knowledge (hands on on tools like eclipse) is quite limited ( I know the language and I mostly use my OO experience coming from Smalltalkk usage for designing the frameworks someone else translate in code), but I'm using VisualStudio from the beginning, and I support a persistency frameworks there (clone to a smalltalk one) from several years, being it used by several huge customer.
I also develop web applications for these customer (big insurance company here in Italy) and my approach here is quite different from your. I use VS only for developing code (with resharper for refactoring), never designed a single aspx page.
As in my smalltalk applications, all of my gui (web pages...) are generated, the code create the HTML, and usually I have only an initial aspx page and a one or more .ashx page for receiving all of the ajax call and dispatching to the right method, this will give back html. Also the AJAX frameworks is my own. (using prototype/scriptacolous)

this is something I allways did in Smalltalk from years. no GUI builder tool, just code generation, this is much easier now, with CSS so powerfull and quite supported on browser. ( I do the same also for cleint/server app, gui are generated, almost never designed)

I have also cutomer that, after long time using gui tools, are now following my ideas, generating instead of designing GUI, this still in the Microsoft VisualStudio world.

So, it's not a problem of language, but a problem of how someone think about generating applications.
I'm pretty sure my way of working gave me lot of benefits, but your idea and exprerince can say the same for you too, it a question of taste. The only thing I would suggest is: try this way and then decide (also on c#, if you like)
The only real difference is that on visualStudio you have the choice, here in Smalltalk you don't. But,smalltalk has so many advantages... (you will discover it if you will insist on using it for a while, first time are hard, I understand, it's a new world...)

Ciao and good luck

Giorgio

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Rob Rothwell <r.j.rothwell@...> wrote:

Thanks Janko.

It's hard to fight the lure of drag-and-drop with a Smalltalk learning curve!

That's why I still feel like a framework that could generate maintainable code, at least to get people started, would be useful. The would see the relationship between placing the button and the generated code easily because there would be so little code to generate!

The code generated by other tools seems very hard to follow, or is not given to you at all (VB, for example).

I've mentioned your success before, but will pass this along in your own voice!

Thanks,

Rob

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@...> wrote:

Hi Rob,

As you already mention it is a long-term mantability and extendability of Smalltalk systems what should count, not short-term flashy, cool painting of your apps with Visual Studio, which soon start to became spaghetti code and you need to start rewriting them again. That's what M$ like a lot of course ...

On the contrary Smalltalk (and Aida) apps are almost eternal, they can stand years and years of continuous change, yet stay maintainable. Let me just point to 10 years anniversary of longest living Aida app: a Gas Billing System for out National Gas Company, billing all the gas in Slovenia: http://www.aidaweb.si/news/anniversaries-records.html

Best regards
Janko

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Re: Visual Studio 2008

2008-04-19T05:53:55Z

Hi Rob,

Rob Rothwell wrote:

> It's hard to fight the lure of drag-and-drop with a Smalltalk learning
> curve!
>
> That's why I still feel like a framework that could generate
> maintainable code, at least to get people started, would be useful. The
> would see the relationship between placing the button and the generated
> code easily because there would be so little code to generate!

Let we have this in mind and let we start looking around is such a tool
already exist to just adopt it. Dreamweaver is such, but when I looked
it last time, I didn't find a way to integrate Aida on it.

Has anyone any other idea how to ad visual building on top of Aida but
without loosing all programming comfort Aida offers?

Janko

>
> The code generated by other tools seems very hard to follow, or is not
> given to you at all (VB, for example).
>
> I've mentioned your success before, but will pass this along in your own
> voice!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
>
> On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@...
> <mailto:janko.mivsek@...>> wrote:
>
> Hi Rob,
>
> As you already mention it is a long-term mantability and
> extendability of Smalltalk systems what should count, not short-term
> flashy, cool painting of your apps with Visual Studio, which soon
> start to became spaghetti code and you need to start rewriting them
> again. That's what M$ like a lot of course ...
>
> On the contrary Smalltalk (and Aida) apps are almost eternal, they
> can stand years and years of continuous change, yet stay
> maintainable. Let me just point to 10 years anniversary of longest
> living Aida app: a Gas Billing System for out National Gas Company,
> billing all the gas in Slovenia:
> http://www.aidaweb.si/news/anniversaries-records.html
>
> Best regards
> Janko
>
>

Re: WebElement and WebComponent

2008-04-19T05:39:19Z

Nicolas Petton wrote:
> For now, WebComponent is an empty subclass of WebElement.
> To differentiate them, we should probably add some useful methods to
> WebComponent.
>
> My idea is to override WebComponent class>>initialize to call a #build
> method, then add an empty #build method. That way the trick (often used)

Agree. Also comment all that methods well to help implementers better
extending them. Also don't forget on Ajax registration for the #build
method in initialize.

Janko

>
> printHTMLPageOn: aStream forSession: aSession
>
> self build.
> ^super printHTMLPageOn: aStream forSession: aSession.
>
> Won't be necessary.
>
> What do you think ?
>
> Nico
>
>
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