A must see when in Detroit

[Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins]

Neon John (and All),
Thanks for the link to your pics from The Henry Ford museum. Info at:
http://www.thehenryford.org/

I meant to post about it, but never got around to it. Back in April
when I hauled the KillaCycle to Detroit for the SAE show, my buddy and
I spent a day at that museum, and I counted four electrics, but the EV1
wasn't there!
http://www.neon-john.com/RV/Trips/henry_ford_museum_2004/slides/IMG_1288.html

Unfortunately, the Village on the complex wasn't open for the season until the
next day, so we
didn't get to see Edison's lab, etc. And although we spent the whole day in the
museum, we didn't see all the exhibits. As your photos show, they have so many
things on display (kitchens!), it is hard to take it all in.

And speaking of the turbine Chrysler car that you mentioned in another thread,
while we were in Detroit we went to the Walter P. Chrysler museum and got to
see it also.
http://chryslerheritage.com/collection2.php?ModelID=47

My buddy and I are recovering Mopar gear-heads, so the Chrysler museum was
also a treat. Although they didn't have my first car,
a 1965 Dodge Coronet, which I still own and drag raced, they had a '64 Dodge 330 drag car
http://chryslerheritage.com/collection2.php?ModelID=48
I just noticed on their website that the '65 Polara they list
http://chryslerheritage.com/collection2.php?ModelID=51
is actually a '65 Coronet, which I'm sure that they did not have when I was there!

EV content:
I still want to convert my old Dodge to eelectric!

Suck Amps...
50,000 plus pure eelectric miles on the buggies, and a countin',
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.info/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, Colorado
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs that raised the two teenagers)
1989 GM (General Murderers of the pure EV!) S10 (144V of floodies, for Pa
only!)
2004 Toyota Prius (for Ma, and Pa if Ma is a supervising!)


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[John Mogelnicki]

Also stop in at Detroit EV and Superlite Cars when you're in Detroit next
time!

John
Detroit EV

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins <
thehawkeye@...> wrote:

> Neon John (and All),
> Thanks for the link to your pics from The Henry Ford museum. Info at:
> http://www.thehenryford.org/
>
> I meant to post about it, but never got around to it. Back in April
> when I hauled the KillaCycle to Detroit for the SAE show, my buddy and
> I spent a day at that museum, and I counted four electrics, but the EV1
> wasn't there!
>
> http://www.neon-john.com/RV/Trips/henry_ford_museum_2004/slides/IMG_1288.html
>
> Unfortunately, the Village on the complex wasn't open for the season until
> the
> next day, so we
> didn't get to see Edison's lab, etc. And although we spent the whole day in
> the
> museum, we didn't see all the exhibits. As your photos show, they have so
> many
> things on display (kitchens!), it is hard to take it all in.
>
> And speaking of the turbine Chrysler car that you mentioned in another
> thread,
> while we were in Detroit we went to the Walter P. Chrysler museum and got
> to
> see it also.
> http://chryslerheritage.com/collection2.php?ModelID=47
>
> My buddy and I are recovering Mopar gear-heads, so the Chrysler museum was
> also a treat. Although they didn't have my first car,
> a 1965 Dodge Coronet, which I still own and drag raced, they had a '64
> Dodge 330 drag car
> http://chryslerheritage.com/collection2.php?ModelID=48
> I just noticed on their website that the '65 Polara they list
> http://chryslerheritage.com/collection2.php?ModelID=51
> is actually a '65 Coronet, which I'm sure that they did not have when I was
> there!
>
> EV content:
> I still want to convert my old Dodge to eelectric!
>
> Suck Amps...
> 50,000 plus pure eelectric miles on the buggies, and a countin',
> Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
> Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
> http://www.devc.info/
> Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
> Racing Association:
> http://www.nedra.com/
> Lyons, Colorado
> 1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs that raised the two teenagers)
> 1989 GM (General Murderers of the pure EV!) S10 (144V of floodies, for Pa
> only!)
> 2004 Toyota Prius (for Ma, and Pa if Ma is a supervising!)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[Neon John]

On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:44:30 -0400 (EDT), "Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins"
<thehawkeye@...> wrote:

>Neon John (and All),
>Thanks for the link to your pics from The Henry Ford museum. Info at:
>http://www.thehenryford.org/
>
>I meant to post about it, but never got around to it. Back in April
>when I hauled the KillaCycle to Detroit for the SAE show, my buddy and
>I spent a day at that museum, and I counted four electrics, but the EV1
>wasn't there!
>http://www.neon-john.com/RV/Trips/henry_ford_museum_2004/slides/IMG_1288.html

Seems to me like there was a placard on the EV1 noting that it was on loan
from somewhere.  Being a modern car, it didn't really fit in with everything
else so I'm not surprised that it was rotated out.  Did you see the coal/wood
fired popcorn popping cart that was very near the electric trike?  Also, hope
you got to see the DC piston steam engine from the old Rouge River power
plant.  I think that they said that those were the largest DC generators ever
built.  Or maybe it was the largest piston-driven generators.  I could just
about stand up in one of the cylinders.
>
>Unfortunately, the Village on the complex wasn't open for the season until the
>next day, so we
>didn't get to see Edison's lab, etc.

You didn't miss a whole lot.  Henry was kinda going off the deep end when he
started collecting buildings to put in the Village.  It shows.  I did enjoy
the Wright Bros bicycle shop and Edison's dynamometer/motor shop but the rest
of the buildings were kinda boring.  His dynamometer was very ingenious,
measuring torque by how much weight could be lifted by a belt running from two
pulleys in the ceiling to a pulley supporting a basket full of weights -
rocks.  Something anyone could easily duplicate at home.

>And although we spent the whole day in the
>museum, we didn't see all the exhibits. As your photos show, they have so many
>things on display (kitchens!), it is hard to take it all in.

I put two hard days in and still didn't get to it all.  That's a three day
museum for sure.  I loved the kitchen appliance section, though I had to blow
through it while the guards were trying to hustle us out :-)  If Mom hadn't
been with me, I might have hidden in an exhibit and had the run of the place
for the night :-)

>
>And speaking of the turbine Chrysler car that you mentioned in another thread,
>while we were in Detroit we went to the Walter P. Chrysler museum and got to
>see it also.
>http://chryslerheritage.com/collection2.php?ModelID=47
>
>My buddy and I are recovering Mopar gear-heads, so the Chrysler museum was
>also a treat.

I'm a non-recovering Mopar Head, though with the sale of my Fury, I'm
currently Mopar-less for the first time in about 20 years.  I missed the
Chrysler museum.  Next time I'm in town...

>Although they didn't have my first car,
>a 1965 Dodge Coronet, which I still own and drag raced, they had a '64 Dodge 330 drag car
>http://chryslerheritage.com/collection2.php?ModelID=48
>I just noticed on their website that the '65 Polara they list
>http://chryslerheritage.com/collection2.php?ModelID=51
>is actually a '65 Coronet, which I'm sure that they did not have when I was there!

Since you're into classics, you really owe it to yourself to get to
Sevierville, TN to the Floyd Garrett Muscle Car museum.  One of the most
amazing collections of hot rods I've ever seen in one place.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.

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[Peter VanDerWal]

> I thought I had my situation resolved with an electric scooter that goes
> 35 mph, but the owner told me after sitting for 6 hours partly discharged
> lead acid starts to crystalize and this would shorten the life if I cant
> plug it in.

That's BS.  Lead-Acid can sit for several days partially discharged with
no serious effects.

If you leave it for a week or two, it will be a bit sluggish for a while.
More than a couple weeks and you start to have issues with
crystallization.

The vast majority of the folks on this list who drive vehicles with
Lead-Acid batteries leave them partially discharged for 8-9 hours a day
and many get 5 years or more life from them.

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[Peter VanDerWal]

> I would have to disagree on the leaving a lead acid battery partially
> discharged for 9 hours. When I did that on my scooter, the batteries
> failed
> after just 150 cycles (70%dod). The cause was attributed to a charger

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with?
You imply that leaving them partially discharged led to their early
failure (it did not) but then state that it was because of problems with
the charger (which is what kills most batteries)

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[Lee Hart]

John Mogelnicki wrote:
> Also stop in at Detroit EV and Superlite Cars when you're in Detroit next
> time!

John, you picked a couple of great names, there. Now, if you could only
sue Zap for infringing on the good "Detroit" name! :-)

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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[Mark Cobb]

Thanks for your advice guys, still trying to make an ev a possibility in my life for going to and from work 26 miles round trip.

I got some bad news the other day that for security reasons, nothing can be connected to the building where I work, including power cords. No, I dont work for fort knox, but fairly close and with their back up generators that take up a building itself and are used when any hint of unfair weather, they crank it up and switch it over off the grid.

So, I was wondering if nickle metal or lithium can sit partly discharged for 9 hours between charges and drive an additional 13 miles once partly discharged after 9 hours?

I thought I had my situation resolved with an electric scooter that goes 35 mph, but the owner told me after sitting for 6 hours partly discharged lead acid starts to crystalize and this would shorten the life if I cant plug it in.

Thanks

Cobb


     

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[Jon Glauser-2]

I know NiCd doesnt care what state you leave it in. I think NiMh
likewise doesnt care.

My guess is that most EVers dont charge at work, I think it is an
exception rather than rule. (though it should be the other way
around!)

-Jon Glauser
http://jonglauser.blogspot.com
http://www.evalbum.com/555

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[Lee Hart]

Mark Cobb wrote:
> I got some bad news the other day that for security reasons, nothing
> can be connected to the building where I work, including power cords.

How about to a light pole in the parking lot? That's not "connected to
the building" exactly. :-)

Or, who are the building's neighbors? Could you ask next door if you
could park there and *buy* electricity for charging?

Is there an advertising sign or other device that has electric power
nearby? Ask the owner if you can *buy* power from him.

Is there a place where you could have the power company install a drop
and so have your own meter and outlet?

> So, I was wondering if nickle metal or lithium can sit partly
> discharged for 9 hours between charges and drive an additional 13
> miles once partly discharged after 9 hours?

Sure; even lead-acids can do it. You only worry about leaving lead-acids
sitting partially discharged for weeks; not hours.

 > I thought I had my situation resolved with an electric scooter that
 > goes 35 mph, but the owner told me after sitting for 6 hours partly
 > discharged lead acid starts to crystalize and this would shorten the
 > life if I cant plug it in.

He is incorrect. But... you could repackage the battery in a lunch box
or briefcase, and simply unplug it and take it into work with you. Keep
a little charger at work, and plug it in anywhere so it's fully charged
for your trip home.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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[zyewdall]

Lithium or NiMH for a scooter should be fairly reasonable price (compared to
for a full size EV), and they don't have any issues, as far as I know.  Even
with lead, I think it's when they sit discharged for several days to weeks
on end... not just a few hours, that the sulphate crystals start hardening
and won't come back off.

I like the lunch box idea... a lithium pack that you could unplug and bring
inside and charge just plugging in next to your computer at your desk....
remember, a lunchbox sized lithium battery is probably only 25 lbs, not
100lbs like a lead acid.

Z

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Lee Hart <leeahart@...> wrote:

> Mark Cobb wrote:
> > I got some bad news the other day that for security reasons, nothing
> > can be connected to the building where I work, including power cords.
>
> How about to a light pole in the parking lot? That's not "connected to
> the building" exactly. :-)
>
> Or, who are the building's neighbors? Could you ask next door if you
> could park there and *buy* electricity for charging?
>
> Is there an advertising sign or other device that has electric power
> nearby? Ask the owner if you can *buy* power from him.
>
> Is there a place where you could have the power company install a drop
> and so have your own meter and outlet?
>
> > So, I was wondering if nickle metal or lithium can sit partly
> > discharged for 9 hours between charges and drive an additional 13
> > miles once partly discharged after 9 hours?
>
> Sure; even lead-acids can do it. You only worry about leaving lead-acids
> sitting partially discharged for weeks; not hours.
>
>  > I thought I had my situation resolved with an electric scooter that
>  > goes 35 mph, but the owner told me after sitting for 6 hours partly
>  > discharged lead acid starts to crystalize and this would shorten the
>  > life if I cant plug it in.
>
> He is incorrect. But... you could repackage the battery in a lunch box
> or briefcase, and simply unplug it and take it into work with you. Keep
> a little charger at work, and plug it in anywhere so it's fully charged
> for your trip home.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[matt-255]

I would have to disagree on the leaving a lead acid battery partially
discharged for 9 hours. When I did that on my scooter, the batteries failed
after just 150 cycles (70%dod). The cause was attributed to a charger that
would overcharge some batteries (it was a 48v string charger with no
balancing function, and the fact I would ride the scooter 12km to uni, leave
it for 4hours, ride 8km to work, leave it for 5-10 hours, then ride it 13km
home and charge it again)
Again, if the batteries in the proposed scooter are anything like my own
were, they weigh 67kg (146lb), and arent even remotely removable.
Depends how big the scooter is I suppose.

Doing the same with my lithium batteries hasn't shown any problems.

Matt

 

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, 2 July 2008 11:29 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can any battery technology safely sit discharged for 9
hours?

Mark Cobb wrote:
> I got some bad news the other day that for security reasons, nothing
> can be connected to the building where I work, including power cords.

How about to a light pole in the parking lot? That's not "connected to the
building" exactly. :-)

Or, who are the building's neighbors? Could you ask next door if you could
park there and *buy* electricity for charging?

Is there an advertising sign or other device that has electric power nearby?
Ask the owner if you can *buy* power from him.

Is there a place where you could have the power company install a drop and
so have your own meter and outlet?

> So, I was wondering if nickle metal or lithium can sit partly
> discharged for 9 hours between charges and drive an additional 13
> miles once partly discharged after 9 hours?

Sure; even lead-acids can do it. You only worry about leaving lead-acids
sitting partially discharged for weeks; not hours.

 > I thought I had my situation resolved with an electric scooter that  >
goes 35 mph, but the owner told me after sitting for 6 hours partly  >
discharged lead acid starts to crystalize and this would shorten the  > life
if I cant plug it in.

He is incorrect. But... you could repackage the battery in a lunch box or
briefcase, and simply unplug it and take it into work with you. Keep a
little charger at work, and plug it in anywhere so it's fully charged for
your trip home.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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--
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7:42 PM

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[Evan Tuer]

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 4:30 PM, Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall@...> wrote:

> I like the lunch box idea... a lithium pack that you could unplug and bring
> inside and charge just plugging in next to your computer at your desk....
> remember, a lunchbox sized lithium battery is probably only 25 lbs, not
> 100lbs like a lead acid.

As far as I've seen, all Chinese electric bikes (for the Chinese
market, this is) use removable NiMH or Li-Ion batteries.  There's a
standard shape of battery even, shared between a few manufacturers.
It slots into the frame just behind the seat post, the rear wheel is
slightly further back than on a normal bike, to accomodate it.  The
same idea is used on some of the larger mopeds and scooters as well.
It's for exactly the same reason, that bikes are left in the city
streets where there is nowhere to plug them in.

I seem to remember reading about a small city car that used a
removable pack too! (in 2 or 4 blocks, lithium of course)

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[zyewdall]

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:45 AM, matt <mc.lacey@...> wrote:

> I would have to disagree on the leaving a lead acid battery partially
> discharged for 9 hours. When I did that on my scooter, the batteries failed
> after just 150 cycles (70%dod). The cause was attributed to a charger that
> would overcharge some batteries (it was a 48v string charger with no
> balancing function, and the fact I would ride the scooter 12km to uni,
> leave
> it for 4hours, ride 8km to work, leave it for 5-10 hours, then ride it 13km
> home and charge it again)
>

What kind of batteries were these?  Sealed or flooded.  Seems like the lack
of a BMS may have made it impossible to recover from what would otherwise
have been been a fixable condition.
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[matt-255]

They were marketed as silicon batteries (apparently silion was used to hold
the electorlyte in place) and came with the scooter.
They were sealed.
The cause of failure was (I thought) a mix of:
1. no attempt to put in matched capacity batteries
2. no balancing feature resulting in the pack going out of balance, with
some batteries overcharged, others under.
3. Leaving batteries at a partial state of charge for 10hours a day

The reason I suspected leaving the batteries at a partial state of charge
was killing them was because those who were getting longer service lives
than me (people I talk to on the visforvoltage forums) were recharging
immediately after use. Given that I had heard (perhaps mistakenly?) that
leaving lead acid batteries at a partial state of charge reduces service
life, I thought that would have been a contributing factor.

Im curious as to how many people have been able to leave their lead packs at
a partial state of charge for 7-8hours a day without a noticeable decrease
in service life. This is the first evidence to the contrary ive heard.

Matt



-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Wednesday, 2 July 2008 11:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can any battery technology safely sit discharged for
9hours?

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:45 AM, matt <mc.lacey@...> wrote:

> I would have to disagree on the leaving a lead acid battery partially
> discharged for 9 hours. When I did that on my scooter, the batteries
> failed after just 150 cycles (70%dod). The cause was attributed to a
> charger that would overcharge some batteries (it was a 48v string
> charger with no balancing function, and the fact I would ride the
> scooter 12km to uni, leave it for 4hours, ride 8km to work, leave it
> for 5-10 hours, then ride it 13km home and charge it again)
>

What kind of batteries were these?  Sealed or flooded.  Seems like the lack
of a BMS may have made it impossible to recover from what would otherwise
have been been a fixable condition.
_______________________________________________
-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Wednesday, 2 July 2008 4:40 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Can any battery technology safely sit discharged for 9
hours?

> I would have to disagree on the leaving a lead acid battery partially
> discharged for 9 hours. When I did that on my scooter, the batteries
> failed after just 150 cycles (70%dod). The cause was attributed to a
> charger

I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with?
You imply that leaving them partially discharged led to their early failure
(it did not) but then state that it was because of problems with the charger
(which is what kills most batteries)

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[EVDL Administrator]

On 3 Jul 2008 at 0:17, matt wrote:

> They were marketed as silicon batteries (apparently silion was used to hold
> the electorlyte in place) and came with the scooter.

They're usually called "silicone" batteries, not silicon.  Others may (and
probably do ;-) know something I don't, but from what I can tell, they're
just gel batteries.  Nothing that earth-shaking.

> The cause of failure was (I thought) a mix of:
> 1. no attempt to put in matched capacity batteries
> 2. no balancing feature resulting in the pack going out of balance, with
> some batteries overcharged, others under.
> 3. Leaving batteries at a partial state of charge for 10hours a day

There may be something to this.  Balance among cells and batteries is a
problem with valve regulated batteries unless manufacturing consistency is
excellent.  (The East Penn gel batteries worked well for Solectria without a
BMS, mostly because of unusually good consistency.)

OTOH, balance isn't as much of a problem with short strings of batteries.  A
gentle overcharge can usually equalize them well enough.

However, if a poorly designed automatic charger shuts off too soon and the
pack is never equalized, it could eventually cause chronic undercharging in
some cells.  That would indeed result in sulfation.  Since your range is
determined by your weakest battery, you'd definitely feel it.

>
> The reason I suspected leaving the batteries at a partial state of charge
> was killing them was because those who were getting longer service lives
> than me (people I talk to on the visforvoltage forums) were recharging
> immediately after use.

It's always better to recharge lead as soon as possible.  How >much< better?
 That I don't know.  Perhaps others have carried out solid research on this
topic.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[Lee Hart]

matt wrote:
> They were marketed as silicon batteries (apparently silion was used to hold
> the electorlyte in place) and came with the scooter.

That is basically marketing eyewash.

There are two types of sealed batteries; AGMs and gels. AGMs use
fiberglass sponges to absorb the loose liquid. Gels use silica (the same
stuff they put in diapers).

In either case (AGM or gel), the material used to hold the electrolyte
is passive. It just prevents spills and leaks; it doesn't change the
battery's chemistry.

> They were sealed.
> The cause of failure was (I thought) a mix of:
> 1. no attempt to put in matched capacity batteries
> 2. no balancing feature resulting in the pack going out of balance, with
> some batteries overcharged, others under.
> 3. Leaving batteries at a partial state of charge for 10hours a day

Any of these (and half a dozen other reasons) could have caused short
battery life. Without actual measurements and testing, it's just guesswork.

> The reason I suspected leaving the batteries at a partial state of charge
> was killing them was because those who were getting longer service lives
> than me (people I talk to on the visforvoltage forums) were recharging
> immediately after use. Given that I had heard (perhaps mistakenly?) that
> leaving lead acid batteries at a partial state of charge reduces service
> life, I thought that would have been a contributing factor.

Running the pack completely dead, and then leaving it for days before
recharging would certainly shorten their life.

> I'm curious as to how many people have been able to leave their lead packs at
> a partial state of charge for 7-8hours a day without a noticeable decrease
> in service life. This is the first evidence to the contrary ive heard.

Good heavens... I've been driving EVs for 30 odd years, and rarely been
able to charge at work. So the pack gets run partially down on the way
to work in the morning, sits for 8+hours, then gets run down some more
driving home. If it still isn't at least half discharged, I'd let it sit
and do it again tomorrow. (The goal is to recharge when the pack is
about 50% discharged).

With this regimen, my packs lasted 5-10 years.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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