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A dozen of new patches to test!
Hi,
Chris has just uploaded a dozen of great patches. Would be great
to include them in 1.3.4, but only two persons testing them (me and
him) is not enough, especially because I have found some problems
with few of them, while Chris didn't. I hope to work this out, and
check again, also with trunk.
We cannot go on "horray" and apply every patch around. More people
needs to test them on their systems and see if they work.
I'm looking forward to see your votes!
--
Janek Kozicki |
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
* Janek Kozicki < janek_listy@...> wrote:
> Chris has just uploaded a dozen of great patches. Would be
> great to include them in 1.3.4, but only two persons testing...
Is there any way to get notified when the Patches page changes?
I have it on my 'watch' list, but it doesn't seem to work the
same as other pages.
-- Scott
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
Janek Kozicki < janek_listy@...> writes:
> Chris has just uploaded a dozen of great patches. Would be great
> to include them in 1.3.4,
Or maybe not, instead getting 1.3.4 out soonish and testing the new
patches in no hurry. Your call of course, but Sawfish has been very
stable for years (nearly dead, but dead is stable), and users may
expect stability also from new releases. Also, be wary of adding
defcustoms: usability will go downhill as clutter increases. If
someone would write a better sawfish-ui with a decent search function
for options, then we could add defcustoms to our hearts' content, but
not with the current UI.
> but only two persons testing them (me and him) is not enough,
Sorry, I probably cannot help much for the next month or so.
--
Timo Korvola <URL: http://www.iki.fi/tkorvola>
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
Am Freitag, den 08.08.2008, 21:40 +0300 schrieb Timo Korvola:
Janek Kozicki <janek_listy@...> writes:
> Chris has just uploaded a dozen of great patches. Would be great
> to include them in 1.3.4,
Or maybe not, instead getting 1.3.4 out soonish and testing the new
patches in no hurry. Your call of course, but Sawfish has been very
stable for years (nearly dead, but dead is stable), and users may
expect stability also from new releases. Also, be wary of adding
defcustoms: usability will go downhill as clutter increases. If
someone would write a better sawfish-ui with a decent search function
for options, then we could add defcustoms to our hearts' content, but
not with the current UI.
I know about the usability issue.
a) I would like to re-order the options for better usability. The old and the new ones.
(After we decided, what new option gets in and which not - so that I only have to do it once)
b) I really would like to create a new UI - but my lisp skill are not good enough and rep-glade is still dead.
But perhaps you, Andrea, Ferk and GSR (our great lisp hackers) can make a new UI for 1.3.5?
Does rep-gtk support Frame-Widgets? I'm pretty sure, but I haven't checked yet.
That could solve our problem.
> but only two persons testing them (me and him) is not enough,
Sorry, I probably cannot help much for the next month or so.
Chris
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
Christopher Bratusek < nano-master@...> writes:
> a) I would like to re-order the options for better usability. The old
> and the new ones.
That might help a bit but not fundamentally. Point-and-drool does not
scale. Language does, which is why a search function would make a big
difference.
> b) I really would like to create a new UI - but my lisp skill are not
> good enough and rep-glade is still dead.
It badly needs resurrecting if also the themer depends on it.
--
Timo Korvola <URL: http://www.iki.fi/tkorvola>
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
Am Freitag, den 08.08.2008, 22:46 +0300 schrieb Timo Korvola:
Christopher Bratusek <nano-master@...> writes:
> a) I would like to re-order the options for better usability. The old
> and the new ones.
That might help a bit but not fundamentally. Point-and-drool does not
scale. Language does, which is why a search function would make a big
difference.
I know.
> b) I really would like to create a new UI - but my lisp skill are not
> good enough and rep-glade is still dead.
It badly needs resurrecting if also the themer depends on it.
I reactivated rep-gtk and librep but I haven't found a patch for making rep-glade work again.
In rep-gtk's TODO you'll see what is broken in rep-glade. Either way I actually don't know how to fix it. Perhaps I'll get enlightened when having a look at older versions?
Chris
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Timo Korvola <Timo.Korvola@...> wrote:
Also, be wary of adding
defcustoms: usability will go downhill as clutter increases. If
someone would write a better sawfish-ui with a decent search function
for options, then we could add defcustoms to our hearts' content, but
not with the current UI.
Yes, I was also thinking that sawfish-ui really needs some love. Maybe a simpler and nice approach could be to have somewhere an option like "show advanced options" ..or even have a choice of different levels (basic, advanced and full) and use classes to show only the ones with selected levels.
I've not checked customize code, however.. so I'm not really sure if this is really a good idea. On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Christopher Bratusek <nano-master@...> wrote:
But perhaps you, Andrea, Ferk and GSR (our great lisp hackers) can make a new UI for 1.3.5?
Haha.. thank you for including me there, although I think I'm not that good. I've just joined some time ago and still not fully understand sawfish code, although I've learned scheme some time ago and love lisp but I'm still a newcomer to this.
Anyway I would love to help. I'm afraid, however, that maybe for the next weeks I will be a bit busy. -- Fernando
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
Am Montag, den 18.08.2008, 22:22 +0200 schrieb GSR - FR:
[Sorry for slow reply]
Hi,
ferkiwi@... (2008-08-09 at 0254.05 +0200):
> > Also, be wary of adding
> > defcustoms: usability will go downhill as clutter increases. If
> > someone would write a better sawfish-ui with a decent search function
> > for options, then we could add defcustoms to our hearts' content, but
> > not with the current UI.
> Yes, I was also thinking that sawfish-ui really needs some love.
> Maybe a simpler and nice approach could be to have somewhere an option like
> "show advanced options" ..or even have a choice of different levels (basic,
> advanced and full) and use classes to show only the ones with selected
> levels.
IIRC that was the case, and it was removed as nobody manages to choose
the right level for every user. It happens with other apps too... in
the end, if you want to be sure you are not missing anything, you
select highest. Not very useful in the end.
GSR
I just found out that sawfish-ui has two modes, one with a treeview (unreachable without modifying the code)
and the one that is currently default. Perhaps this might help us.
Screenshot of sawfish-ui with treeviews (+ serveral new options + sub-tabs re-ordered):
http://www.nanolx.org/other/sawfish-ui-retry-mockup.png
the current behaviour can then be reached by running "sawfish-ui --flatten"
diff of my local version to current trunk (just in case you want to have it):
http://www.nanolx.org/other/sawfish.patch
Chris
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
[Sorry for slow reply]
Hi,
ferkiwi@... (2008-08-09 at 0254.05 +0200):
> > Also, be wary of adding
> > defcustoms: usability will go downhill as clutter increases. If
> > someone would write a better sawfish-ui with a decent search function
> > for options, then we could add defcustoms to our hearts' content, but
> > not with the current UI.
> Yes, I was also thinking that sawfish-ui really needs some love.
> Maybe a simpler and nice approach could be to have somewhere an option like
> "show advanced options" ..or even have a choice of different levels (basic,
> advanced and full) and use classes to show only the ones with selected
> levels.
IIRC that was the case, and it was removed as nobody manages to choose
the right level for every user. It happens with other apps too... in
the end, if you want to be sure you are not missing anything, you
select highest. Not very useful in the end.
GSR
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
Am Dienstag, den 19.08.2008, 00:31 +0300 schrieb Timo Korvola:
Christopher Bratusek <nano-master@...> writes:
> I just found out that sawfish-ui has two modes, one with a treeview
> (unreachable without modifying the code)
Ah, the old tree view code is still there. That is actually the
original interface. I don't know why it was replaced with the current
multilevel tab mess. Maybe a GTK 2 transition issue.
perhaps. one issue is that the treeview currently only listens to double-clicks.
Do you know how to make it listen to single-clicks? And do you think re-activating
the treeview may solve our problem? (not hiding options _and_ not getting cluttered)
I think that this is much better than that notebook-stuff.
Chris
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
Christopher Bratusek < nano-master@...> writes:
> I just found out that sawfish-ui has two modes, one with a treeview
> (unreachable without modifying the code)
Ah, the old tree view code is still there. That is actually the
original interface. I don't know why it was replaced with the current
multilevel tab mess. Maybe a GTK 2 transition issue.
--
Timo Korvola <URL: http://www.iki.fi/tkorvola>
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Re: A dozen of new patches to test!
Timo Korvola said: (by the date of Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:40:57 +0300)
> Janek Kozicki < janek_listy@...> writes:
> > Chris has just uploaded a dozen of great patches. Would be great
> > to include them in 1.3.4,
>
> Or maybe not, instead getting 1.3.4 out soonish and testing the new
> patches in no hurry. Your call of course, but Sawfish has been very
> stable for years (nearly dead, but dead is stable), and users may
> expect stability also from new releases. Also, be wary of adding
> defcustoms: usability will go downhill as clutter increases. If
> someone would write a better sawfish-ui with a decent search function
> for options, then we could add defcustoms to our hearts' content, but
> not with the current UI.
you are completely right, The patches must have enough time to be
tested. To be honest there are only two more that I wish to include
into 1.3.4:
http://sawfish.wikia.com/wiki/Maximize_fullscreen_xinerama http://sawfish.wikia.com/wiki/Stacking-visibilityCurrently, for few weeks already I'm using sawfish with all submitted
patches applied. But those two, I think are more useful than others.
The xinerama fullscreen turned out to be much more useful than I
expected at first, and that's why i want to apply it for everyone else
who uses xinerama. The stacking visibility is an issue with
transparency and already several people complained, also on IRC.
Well, I hope that we will not see too much regressions ... :)
>
> > but only two persons testing them (me and him) is not enough,
>
> Sorry, I probably cannot help much for the next month or so.
no problem, we all have work to do, also :) Would be great of you
could test other patches, later.
--
Janek Kozicki |
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Improving the GUI (Was: A dozen of new patches to test!)
Christopher Bratusek said: (by the date of Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:18:27 +0200)
> Am Dienstag, den 19.08.2008, 00:31 +0300 schrieb Timo Korvola:
>
> > Christopher Bratusek < nano-master@...> writes:
> > > I just found out that sawfish-ui has two modes, one with a treeview
> > > (unreachable without modifying the code)
> >
> > Ah, the old tree view code is still there. That is actually the
> > original interface. I don't know why it was replaced with the current
> > multilevel tab mess. Maybe a GTK 2 transition issue.
>
> perhaps. one issue is that the treeview currently only listens to
> double-clicks.
> Do you know how to make it listen to single-clicks? And do you think
> re-activating
> the treeview may solve our problem? (not hiding options _and_ not
> getting cluttered)
> I think that this is much better than that notebook-stuff.
One idea from Time was particularly appealing for me - to add the
ability of *searching* through all the config options exposed in GUI.
You type in the search window what you want to configure, and the
right configuration tab opens for you.
Question is: does lisp recognize its variables as strings? Is it
possible to (maybe regexp) search through the variables themselves
that are exposed?
But anyway - searching through descriptions would work well enough also.
--
Janek Kozicki |
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Re: Improving the GUI (Was: A dozen of new patches to test!)
Am Freitag, den 29.08.2008, 11:48 +0200 schrieb Janek Kozicki:
> Christopher Bratusek said: (by the date of Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:18:27 +0200)
>
> > Am Dienstag, den 19.08.2008, 00:31 +0300 schrieb Timo Korvola:
> >
> > > Christopher Bratusek < nano-master@...> writes:
> > > > I just found out that sawfish-ui has two modes, one with a treeview
> > > > (unreachable without modifying the code)
> > >
> > > Ah, the old tree view code is still there. That is actually the
> > > original interface. I don't know why it was replaced with the current
> > > multilevel tab mess. Maybe a GTK 2 transition issue.
> >
> > perhaps. one issue is that the treeview currently only listens to
> > double-clicks.
> > Do you know how to make it listen to single-clicks? And do you think
> > re-activating
> > the treeview may solve our problem? (not hiding options _and_ not
> > getting cluttered)
> > I think that this is much better than that notebook-stuff.
>
> One idea from Time was particularly appealing for me - to add the
> ability of *searching* through all the config options exposed in GUI.
> You type in the search window what you want to configure, and the
> right configuration tab opens for you.
>
> Question is: does lisp recognize its variables as strings? Is it
> possible to (maybe regexp) search through the variables themselves
> that are exposed?
>
> But anyway - searching through descriptions would work well enough also.
>
Dunno, but what about the Treeview/Re-exposed and Re-ordered Options? Is
it OK like that? If so I would update the Wiki patches - which are not
equal to what I made in the meantime.
And is this to be for 1.3.5 or 1.5.0 (I'm just asking, 'cause those
patches revert that ugly changes made at GNOME 2.0 and there also
finishing two goals for 1.5.0 - Undeprecating Viewports, different
SawfishUI UI)
Chris
GNOME/Sawfish rule!
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Re: Improving the GUI (Was: A dozen of new patches to test!)
Hi,
janek_listy@... (2008-08-29 at 1148.04 +0200):
> Question is: does lisp recognize its variables as strings? Is it
> possible to (maybe regexp) search through the variables themselves
> that are exposed?
sawfish-client has ,apropos (with the leading , as ,help one) and tab
completion, so it is possible.
GSR
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Re: Improving the GUI
Christopher Bratusek said: (by the date of Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:51:34 +0200)
> Dunno, but what about the Treeview/Re-exposed and Re-ordered Options?
What are the Re-ordered options? I don't see any patches about "re-ordered"....
> Is it OK like that? If so I would update the Wiki patches - which are not
> equal to what I made in the meantime.
uh, I have troubles parsing it. Can you explain a bit more?
> And is this to be for 1.3.5 or 1.5.0 (I'm just asking, 'cause those
> patches revert that ugly changes made at GNOME 2.0 and there also
> finishing two goals for 1.5.0 - Undeprecating Viewports, different
> SawfishUI UI)
I'm don't know right now. We should remember about GUI clutter...
But they surely will be applied in sawfish-experimental release for
people to play with.
Your question is: at which release 1.3.5 or 1.5.0 they will migrate
from experimental to stable? ;-)
I remember the treeview GUI. In fact I have debian potato, woody and
etch installed inside vmware. I did it just to see older version of
sawfish in its "native" environment.
Frankly I don't see any conceptual difference between treeview and
tabs-in-tabs view. It's exactly the same functionality. Using one or
another makes no difference at all for me. (maybe because my mind
is.... I dunno: semantic-focused (?))
That's why I think it's more important to add a "search box".
BTW: if anyone wants vmware disc images I can put them for download.
--
Janek Kozicki |
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Re: Improving the GUI
Christopher Bratusek < nano-master@...> writes:
> Am Freitag, den 29.08.2008, 11:48 +0200 schrieb Janek Kozicki:
>> Question is: does lisp recognize its variables as strings?
I am not sure whether there is a lisp interface to ,apropos. If not,
I expect it shouldn't be too hard to add.
> Dunno, but what about the Treeview/Re-exposed and Re-ordered Options? Is
> it OK like that?
A treeview would be an improvement over the present GUI, and there
might be some potential in modifying option groups, but in the long
run the treeview does not scale either. defcustom does not currently
allow to specify the order of settings in the dialog, and it would be
difficult to do that in a modular fashion. Perhaps they should just
be sorted alphabetically.
--
Timo Korvola <URL: http://www.iki.fi/tkorvola>
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Re: Improving the GUI
Am Samstag, den 30.08.2008, 01:06 +0200 schrieb Janek Kozicki:
> Christopher Bratusek said: (by the date of Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:51:34 +0200)
>
> > Dunno, but what about the Treeview/Re-exposed and Re-ordered Options?
>
> What are the Re-ordered options? I don't see any patches about "re-ordered"....
Janek, I posted the link to the patch of my local changes previously in this thread,
I was refering to it. so here's the link again: http://www.nanolx.org/other/sawfish.patchChris
GNOME/Sawfish rule!
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Re: Improving the GUI
Am Samstag, den 30.08.2008, 22:23 +0300 schrieb Timo Korvola:
> Christopher Bratusek < nano-master@...> writes:
> > Am Freitag, den 29.08.2008, 11:48 +0200 schrieb Janek Kozicki:
> >> Question is: does lisp recognize its variables as strings?
>
> I am not sure whether there is a lisp interface to ,apropos. If not,
> I expect it shouldn't be too hard to add.
>
> > Dunno, but what about the Treeview/Re-exposed and Re-ordered Options? Is
> > it OK like that?
>
> A treeview would be an improvement over the present GUI, and there
> might be some potential in modifying option groups, but in the long
> run the treeview does not scale either. defcustom does not currently
> allow to specify the order of settings in the dialog
They appear in the order in that they are coded.
(defcustom test1 t
"test1"
:group test
:type boolean)
(defcustom test2 nil
"test2"
:group test
:type boolean)
will result in
____________________
| [] test1
|
| [] test2
|___________________
So we would just have to move the code the re-order the options.
> , and it would be
> difficult to do that in a modular fashion. Perhaps they should just
> be sorted alphabeti |
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