Nabble - 4D Biz

Re: Licensing fees

2008-09-09T07:00:09Z

I am jumping into this late in the game, but will second the idea of a
registration system. We have a piece of software protected in this
way and it's very effective. I have been paid many times because the
end-user couldn't continue using the software without some acceptance
on my part that they do so. My system may be especially well suited
to this as their use of the software relates to the use for a sporting
event. All the reports are tied to the information about that event
and the "new" event can't be created in the database without an "OK"
from my registration system. They have a username and password to
request new licenses with from within the software. That request goes
through a SOAP request to my registration server. If the customer is
in bad standing then their request is rejected, and if they are in
good standing it is accepted. My customers use the software for up to
dozens of events a year, so I have many opportunities to ensure that i
am getting paid and they can continue using the software.

I would be happy to share on a technical sense how I built my system,
but I suspect that is not so important. Would it be possible for you
to license it for a year at a time and at the end of the year they get
warnings it will stop working in X days. They could put in payment
info right into the system and via soap you could collect and
reauthorize their use for another year?

-Wes

On Aug 22, 2008, at 12:36 AM, Stephane Potvin wrote:

> Good day,
>
> Thank you again for all your answers and suggestions.
>
> To the risk of being a pain in the neck, please allow me a couple
> more questions.
>
>
>>> I was thinking of putting a time limit in the software. For
>>> example, at the end of a one year contract with the client, the
>>> current
>>> version would simply lock out. The end user could download the
>>> newest version from the client's website. In the event a contract
>>> has
>>> not been renewed with the client, the end used could purchase a
>>> license from my website.
>> Nooooo! If your client knows you are planning to do that they will
>> never proceed. The best you can do is make sure that you capture
>> their details via
>> a registration of some sort and then you can contact them to try
>> and sell them upgrades and tech support.
>
> Not even if the client knows about the time limit? I was thinking of
> making that part of the agreement.
> My concern is that once the software is loose on the internet, I
> loose all ability to ever make a penny from it.
> What happens if next year the client says, thank you, no more. There
> are still copies floating around that can be distributed anywhere,
> anytime.
> How do I ever regain control of my software? If not with a time
> limitation?
>
> Thank you for taking the time to write back.
>
> Your help is greatly appreciated.
>
> Stephane
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Re: Licensing fees

2008-09-08T14:43:19Z

On 22/8/08 05:36, "Stephane Potvin" <stephane.potvin@...> wrote:

I doubt that they would agree to it.

> My concern is that once the software is loose on the internet, I
> loose all ability to ever make a penny from it.
That's the price you will pay for making this kind of deal.

> What happens if next year the client says, thank you, no more. There
> are still copies floating around that can be distributed anywhere,
> anytime.
Again, back to the online registration system. If that happens then you
simply do not allow anybody new to register the software unless they pay for
it. The registration system does not allow them to use it if they haven't
paid for it.

> How do I ever regain control of my software? If not with a time
> limitation?
See above re. An online registration system. We implemented this and it is
very effective. It prevents piracy and it enables us to offer a very
flexible licensing model.

Pat

>
> Thank you for taking the time to write back.
>
> Your help is greatly appreciated.
>
> Stephane
> **********************************************************************
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W: http://www.catbase.com
skype: pat.bensky
--------------------------------------------------

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Re: [off]Sources for XP for Bootcamp, Parallels, VMWare?

2008-09-08T13:26:57Z

Brad; VM has a utility that will create a VM image file from an existing XP
installation. I used that to migrate from a desktop Windows box to VM
Fusion.

E.g., if you have an existing Windows box that you don't need anymore, you
can move it, to a Mac.

On 9/8/08 11:20 AM, "Brad Perkins" <bperkins@...> wrote:

> Apologies if this message already came through to the list. I sent it
> via Nabble this past Friday and received a number of messages over the
> weekend that it hadn't been accepted. I get the 4DBiz digest and haven't
> seen my message come through.
>
>> I'm looking for vendors that sell _legal_ licenses (w/ media) for XP
>> Pro that will install into Bootcamp or one of the virtualization
>> software options. Any recommendations appreciated.
>>
>> -- Brad Perkins
> To elaborate on this, by _legal_ I mean a license that will easily
> activate. I don't want to spend hours on the phone with MS. I did some
> research on this over the weekend and am confused/concerned about what
> is needed/involved to get this working. I haven't bought an Intel Mac
> yet, but plan to in the near future.
>
> Can you use an un-installed OEM license? Or a license for resellers
> (computer builders)? Otherwise I'm looking for good sources for an XP
> Pro license with installation media.
>
> I've seen a few VMWare/XP bundle offers, but am unclear as to whether
> that license could also be installed into BootCamp, or if that XP could
> be used in Parallels?
>
> Sorry for the off-topic post.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Brad Perkins
>
>
> **********************************************************************
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[off]Sources for XP for Bootcamp, Parallels, VMWare?

2008-09-08T11:20:39Z

Apologies if this message already came through to the list. I sent it
via Nabble this past Friday and received a number of messages over the
weekend that it hadn't been accepted. I get the 4DBiz digest and haven't
seen my message come through.

> I'm looking for vendors that sell _legal_ licenses (w/ media) for XP
> Pro that will install into Bootcamp or one of the virtualization
> software options. Any recommendations appreciated.
>
> -- Brad Perkins
To elaborate on this, by _legal_ I mean a license that will easily
activate. I don't want to spend hours on the phone with MS. I did some
research on this over the weekend and am confused/concerned about what
is needed/involved to get this working. I haven't bought an Intel Mac
yet, but plan to in the near future.

Can you use an un-installed OEM license? Or a license for resellers
(computer builders)? Otherwise I'm looking for good sources for an XP
Pro license with installation media.

I've seen a few VMWare/XP bundle offers, but am unclear as to whether
that license could also be installed into BootCamp, or if that XP could
be used in Parallels?

Sorry for the off-topic post.

Thanks,

Brad Perkins

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[off]Sources for XP for Bootcamp, Parallels, VMWare?

2008-09-05T16:22:55Z

I'm looking for vendors that sell _legal_ licenses (w/ media) for XP Pro that will install into Bootcamp or one of the virtualization software options. Any recommendations appreciated.

-- Brad Perkins

Licensing fees

2008-08-21T21:36:02Z

Good day,

Thank you again for all your answers and suggestions.

To the risk of being a pain in the neck, please allow me a couple
more questions.

>> I was thinking of putting a time limit in the software. For
>> example, at the end of a one year contract with the client, the
>> current
>> version would simply lock out. The end user could download the
>> newest version from the client's website. In the event a contract has
>> not been renewed with the client, the end used could purchase a
>> license from my website.
> Nooooo! If your client knows you are planning to do that they will
> never proceed. The best you can do is make sure that you capture
> their details via
> a registration of some sort and then you can contact them to try
> and sell them upgrades and tech support.

Not even if the client knows about the time limit? I was thinking of
making that part of the agreement.
My concern is that once the software is loose on the internet, I
loose all ability to ever make a penny from it.
What happens if next year the client says, thank you, no more. There
are still copies floating around that can be distributed anywhere,
anytime.
How do I ever regain control of my software? If not with a time
limitation?

Thank you for taking the time to write back.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Stephane
**********************************************************************
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Re: Licensing fees

2008-08-20T01:22:32Z

On 19/8/08 05:19, "Stephane Potvin" <stephane.potvin@...> wrote:

> I was thinking of putting a time limit in the software. For example,
> at the end of a one year contract with the client, the current
> version would simply lock out. The end user could download the
> newest version from the client's website. In the event a contract has
> not been renewed with the client, the end used could purchase a
> license from my website.
Nooooo! If your client knows you are planning to do that they will never
proceed. The best you can do is make sure that you capture their details via
a registration of some sort and then you can contact them to try and sell
them upgrades and tech support.
>
> <<This company has obviously seen something in your product that
> might attract people to their website. If they are good management
> they will already have figured some kind of $ value in advertising
> terms that this is worth.
> Why not just say you have not got a clue what to charge and ask them
> to make
> you an offer.>>
> I have tried that approach with no result. Any other suggestion?
Make them an offer :)

> Here is my question.
> My software sells for $35 per unit.
> The potential client sells about 33 000 items with a profit of about
> $3000 per item in a year
> 33 000 sales a year X $15 for my software = $495 000
>
> On one hand this seems very high, on the other, if one thinks of a
> $15 investment on a $3000 profit, it is minute.
>
> One of your advice was "do not be greedy".
>
> Am I being greedy?

I am guessing that if you sell the software for $35, then it is not a very
complex product. What would it cost to have something similar developed from
scratch? Less than half a million $, I'm willing to bet. Make them an offer
... I'd start at something like $50,000 a year and see what kind of reaction
you get. Even that may be way more than they are willing to pay but it's
better to start the negotiations high.

No matter how sophisticated your product is, with a $35 price tag it is
perceived as a low-value item. They are not going to pay a lot of money for
it.

That's my thoughts anyway.

Pat
>
> Your continued advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Stephane
>

--------------------------------------------------
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CatBase Software Ltd.
T: +44 (0) 1462 454522
W: http://www.catbase.com
skype: pat.bensky
--------------------------------------------------

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re: Licensing fees

2008-08-18T21:19:09Z

Good day,

Thank you all who responded to my posting about licensing.

Your comments were very helpful.

Further to your comments and questions, please allow me to provide
further information and ask a few more questions.

<<What happens if you or they decide to end the agreement? What about
all
those free copies that are out there?>>
I was thinking of putting a time limit in the software. For example,
at the end of a one year contract with the client, the current
version would simply lock out. The end user could download the
newest version from the client's website. In the event a contract has
not been renewed with the client, the end used could purchase a
license from my website.

<<This company has obviously seen something in your product that
might attract people to their website. If they are good management
they will already have figured some kind of $ value in advertising
terms that this is worth.
Why not just say you have not got a clue what to charge and ask them
to make
you an offer.>>
I have tried that approach with no result. Any other suggestion?

<<Potentially there is a lot of kudos for you in the arrangement. So
at very
least I would negotiate a limited version that they can offer for
download
at a very reasonable annual price to cover your costs. What you get
is a
potential sales channel.>>
They are pretty clear that they want a totally unlocked version for
free distribution at large.

<<I was in exactly this situation myself a few years back.
What we did was to sell the licenses in batches.>>
I had offered selling them the software based on a number of license,
but they want unlimited distribution.

Here is my question.
My software sells for $35 per unit.
The potential client sells about 33 000 items with a profit of about
$3000 per item in a year
33 000 sales a year X $15 for my software = $495 000

On one hand this seems very high, on the other, if one thinks of a
$15 investment on a $3000 profit, it is minute.

One of your advice was "do not be greedy".

Am I being greedy?

Your continued advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Stephane

_________

> Subject: Licensing fees
> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:50:55 -0400
> From: Stephane Potvin <stephane.potvin@...>
> To: 4d_biz@...
> Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP306CCB7CB60E749DAA07C295730@...>
>
> Good day all,
>
> I have developed a little program using 4D. My plan was to sell that
> program online on my own web site.
>
> Last week I received a call from a rather large corporation who is
> interested in the product. What they would like to do is offer it for
> free on their web site as an incentive to buy their services. No
> limitations in features
>
> They are asking how much I would charge for the "licensing" or the
> right to put an unlocked version of my software on their site.
>
> They have asked me for a "quote" for the fully unlocked version, and
> upon discussion a feature limited version.
>
> Honestly I was not expecting that kind of interest in my product and
> really don't know where to begin the pricing process.
>
> Any help with pricing and also any other issue relating to this
> opportunity would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Stephane Potvin

Re: Stephane Potvin

2008-08-14T06:18:05Z

I was in exactly this situation myself a few years back.

What we did was to sell the licenses in batches.

e.g.

1 License = 100 Euros per unit ( = download)

1000 LIcenses = 75 Euros per unit

25,000 Licenses = 1-3 Euros per unit

So the unit license price went from 100 Euros per license for a 1-
by-1 download, right down to 1 Euro per download, but to get the 1
unit per license price they had to buy a 25,000 license batch up
front (This simply took the form of a signed agreement). That way
they are taking the risk of deciding how many licenses they'll use -
not you. If they don't want to take that risk they just pay a higher
unit price.

To monitor the downloads, we set it all up on a server so that the
actual download link (housed on their website) pointed to an archive
on our server.

h.t.h.

Regards

Peter

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Re: Stephane Potvin

2008-08-14T00:38:36Z

Stephane,

Aside from the excellent comments made by the others regarding the on-going
development and support of the product. I would add the following:

Keep it simple (not sure I would want to pay legal fees) and don't get too
greedy.

This company has obviously seen something in your product that might attract
people to their website. If they are good management they will already have
figured some kind of $ value in advertising terms that this is worth.

Why not just say you have not got a clue what to charge and ask them to make
you an offer.

>From my perspective I would have looked at what I was planning to make out
of the product in sales and support and would always want to have a return
over and above my development time and effort.

Potentially there is a lot of kudos for you in the arrangement. So at very
least I would negotiate a limited version that they can offer for download
at a very reasonable annual price to cover your costs. What you get is a
potential sales channel.

If having asked the question of them "how much?" they come back with a good
offer for the fully featured version plus you sort out the support and dev
issues then go for it and start your next project.

Regards, Dougie

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Re: Licensing fees

2008-08-13T07:25:52Z

Stephane,

You will also want in writing who will support the product including
enhancements and change requests. Trust me, they will come - even
with the best and simplest of software.

-----
| Douglas S. Davis - Information Systems Coordinator
| Monical Pizza Corporation (http://www.monicals.com)
- - - - - - - - - -
| 815/937-1890 - voice . . . 815/937-9828 - fax
-----

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Re: Summit 2008 WebCasts?

2008-08-13T07:25:28Z

Silly ME, that was meant for Stephane.

-----
| Douglas S. Davis - Information Systems Coordinator
| Monical Pizza Corporation (http://www.monicals.com)
- - - - - - - - - -
| 815/937-1890 - voice . . . 815/937-9828 - fax
-----

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Re: Summit 2008 WebCasts?

2008-08-13T07:24:10Z

Lyn,

You will also want in writing who will support the product including
enhancements and change requests. Trust me, they will come - even
with the best and simplest of software.

-----
| Douglas S. Davis - Information Systems Coordinator
| Monical Pizza Corporation (http://www.monicals.com)
- - - - - - - - - -
| 815/937-1890 - voice . . . 815/937-9828 - fax
-----

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Re: Licensing fees

2008-08-13T07:02:37Z

Hi Stephane,

I think the most important thing to think about will be that you then may
not be able to sell the product yourself, at all, if people know they can
get it for free elsewhere. But that might be OK as long as you are getting a
worthwhile fee from those guys who want to give it away. What amount would
be worthwhile is of course up to you to decide - but I would suggest making
it a monthly or annual fee.

Things to consider:

What happens if you or they decide to end the agreement? What about all
those free copies that are out there?
What about tech support and upgrades? Who handles those and who gets paid
for them?
You'll want to know who has a free copy so that you can contact them
regarding upgrades etc.

For all those reasons I would recommend putting in place some kind of online
registration. They would have to register their copy before they could use
it. You'd then know who everybody was, how to contact them, what version
they have, and so on.

HTH

Pat

On 13/8/08 02:50, "Stephane Potvin" <stephane.potvin@...> wrote:

> Good day all,
>
> I have developed a little program using 4D. My plan was to sell that
> program online on my own web site.
>
> Last week I received a call from a rather large corporation who is
> interested in the product. What they would like to do is offer it for
> free on their web site as an incentive to buy their services. No
> limitations in features
>
> They are asking how much I would charge for the "licensing" or the
> right to put an unlocked version of my software on their site.
>
> They have asked me for a "quote" for the fully unlocked version, and
> upon discussion a feature limited version.
>
> Honestly I was not expecting that kind of interest in my product and
> really don't know where to begin the pricing process.
>
> Any help with pricing and also any other issue relating to this
> opportunity would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Stephane Potvin
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Server v11 SQL has arrived!
> Buy it NOW at http://store.4ddepot.com
>
> 4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ: http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
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RE: Licensing fees

2008-08-13T06:43:54Z

Find yourself a good licensing/IP lawyer. It will not be cheap but it will
be worth it. There are firms that specialize in just this.

-----Original Message-----
From: 4d_biz-bounces@... [mailto:4d_biz-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Stephane Potvin
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:51 PM
To: 4d_biz@...
Subject: Licensing fees

Good day all,

I have developed a little program using 4D. My plan was to sell that
program online on my own web site.

Last week I received a call from a rather large corporation who is
interested in the product. What they would like to do is offer it for
free on their web site as an incentive to buy their services. No
limitations in features

They are asking how much I would charge for the "licensing" or the
right to put an unlocked version of my software on their site.

They have asked me for a "quote" for the fully unlocked version, and
upon discussion a feature limited version.

Honestly I was not expecting that kind of interest in my product and
really don't know where to begin the pricing process.

Any help with pricing and also any other issue relating to this
opportunity would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Stephane Potvin
**********************************************************************
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Licensing fees

2008-08-12T18:50:55Z

Good day all,

I have developed a little program using 4D. My plan was to sell that
program online on my own web site.

Last week I received a call from a rather large corporation who is
interested in the product. What they would like to do is offer it for
free on their web site as an incentive to buy their services. No
limitations in features

They are asking how much I would charge for the "licensing" or the
right to put an unlocked version of my software on their site.

They have asked me for a "quote" for the fully unlocked version, and
upon discussion a feature limited version.

Honestly I was not expecting that kind of interest in my product and
really don't know where to begin the pricing process.

Any help with pricing and also any other issue relating to this
opportunity would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Stephane Potvin
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Summit 2008 WebCasts?

2008-07-25T12:44:36Z

What's the possibility of making these sessions a webcast for those
who do not attend the Summit?

Lyn

> Due to an amazing turn out last year, and a wealth of information
> this year, we are now offering two (yes 2!) Pre-Classes at the 4D
> Summit 2008. No matter which one you choose, you'll get a full day
> of in-depth training taught by 4D expert staff. That’s two options,
> but one great experience!
>
> Both Pre-Classes occur on October 7, 2008 from 9:00am to 4:30pm and
> cost just $499.
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[ANN] New York City Regional 4D Users Group Meeting, Wed. 7/16/08, 7:30 PM

2008-07-07T15:40:22Z

New York City Regional 4D Users Group - July 2008
(Please rsvp so that we can judge how many people may be attending)

Date: Wednesday, July 16, Hours: 7:30 PM to 9:30 PM
Location: Saint Peter's Church at The Citicorp Center (see below for
complete directions)
Contact Gary Brocks: gbrocks@...

Topics and Presenters
- An open discussion on 4D Server v11 SQL

7:30 Meet and Greet
7:40 Open discussion on 4D Server v11 SQL

* times other than the start time and end time of the meeting are
flexible, depending on the presenters and participants preferences.

Postings concerning NYCR4DUG meetings and activities can be found at
our website http://www.nyc4d.org and at http://www.4dtoday.com.

Facility:
Saint Peter's Church at The Citicorp Center
619 Lexington Avenue at 54th Street
New York, NY
212-935-2200

Meeting Room:
The Committee Room

Near by subway lines:
E or V trains to Lexington Ave station (at 53rd Street)
4 or 5 trains to the 59th Street station (on Lexington Avenue), then
walk south on Lexington Avenue 6 blocks.
6 train to the 51 Street station (on Lexington Avenue), walk north 2
blocks.

The entrance to Saint Peter's Church is on 54th Street between
Lexington Ave and 3rd Avenue. Upon entering you will see the
reception desk. Let the receptionist know that you are there for the
NYC4DUG meeting.

Take the elevator (on your left) down to level LL2 / Theater Level.
When you reach the Theater Level, walk straight through the lobby,
and though a set of reddish fire doors. After walking though the fire
doors, continue up a short flight of stairs (about 6 steps) and
continue straight ahead to the 2nd door on the right, the door for
the Committee Room.

Sponsorship of this month’s meeting will be provided for by a
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[OFF] 4D 2003 Client Licenses

2008-06-12T16:38:37Z

Hello,

Does anybody have unregistered /spare Win 4D 2003 Client licenses they
are willing to sell? I probably need about 5 - 10 seats.

Regards,

Lee

Terra Universal, Inc.

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4D Developer Available

2008-06-06T15:47:43Z

Hello,

4D Developer with 18 years experience (v3 to v11) now available for
contract work.

Macintosh or Windows, single user or server, simple or complex, one
developer or many. Rreferences available.

Give me a call or email and let's see how I can help with your
database needs.

--
Charlie Vass
CRV Inc.
(704) 662-6404
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Re: Microsoft Dynamics

2008-05-12T04:12:43Z

Dougie,

Your 'ramblings' were actually very interesting - I hadn't been aware
of all the open source stuff. I had been looking at commercial
solutions up till now. The only open source one I looked at was open
MFG (http://www.openmfg.com/).

I'm not actually planning to install any of these - I'm just in the
process of doing the 3rd rewrite of my business tools in 20 years.
Before I embarked on the rewrite I tried to 'sell' an off the shelf
solution to a couple of existing users, but they didn't want it. I
couldn't even get them to look at them seriously. This was more about
the fact that they've got an existing business relationship with me
and that they want to to 'take care of them than the fact that my
products are competitive (which they aren't any more).

I realised I wouldn't have the same success with a 'cold start'
customer which is why I started this thread.

I've been looking Oracle Financials is what I've used for some
'standards' reference. It's not open source but fairly open in terms
of it's mechanics by reading the blogs. In the process of this
research I stumbled across the Microsoft stuff and realised I hadn't
noticed that they had effectively bought over anything that was
anything in the CRM/ERM/Accounting market and that that was a major
sea change from when MS stuck to desktop and server products. They
now had jumped into the 'middle' bit, thereby closing off a huge
chunk of market that used to be far more open and diverse.

On 12 May 2008, at 10:54, Dougie Cryer wrote:
> 2) The globalisation of development meaning that a very competent
> development team can be hired for the cost of a single
> developer at 10
> years past prices.

Absolutely agree with that one. I think that the ability to support
team development is obviously essential to any product that wants to
grow. I don't really have any complaints about 4D in this respect.
One of their business objectives in my opinion should be to get 4D to
a level technically where it becomes attractive for investors to buy
and 'business-develop' existing 4D products. The old component model
wasn't really conducive to this because of the amount of forward
planning and co-ordination needed, but the new one (with it's
protected variable space) is more realistic and a huge leap forward
for team development potential, even in legacy products.

An interesting business aspect of this is that I had 2 quite big
customers - one of the a public company - who both had the same
concerns about buying from a small vendor but who reacted differently.

In both cases, the board level opinion was simple: whatever they
bought - in terms of accounting at least - had to be from an
established company and that company had to be well capitalized. It
wasn't enough that you had a good product or had been around, but you
had to have been either 'bought over' or 'bought into'. In one case I
simply lost the customer to a larger company. I didn't mind that
since they were growing so fast there was no way I could compete and
I understood that they could not be seen to be dealing with a 'one
man band'. This is what they bought, which was described by a board
member as 'the dogs bollocks'. Initial license fee was £180,000. (=
$360,000 at today's crumbling dollar prices).

http://www.agresso.com

The other one is still ongoing - they are less traditional and more
open to all options. Despite this, their board level advice (don't
know the source) was to buy from 'established, capitalized supplier'.

So there's another example of it - it's not enough to have the right
product, you've got to have the business model as well. (This was
always the case to some extent but seems much more amplified now).

> Increasingly though I have to consider other options.

I can't believe the range of tools you are using. That's impressive -
I admire your adaptability and others on this list that I've seen. I
have worked in and completed projects in other environments (VB - SQL
- Office IAutomation), but it just taxes by brain too much to mix and
match technologies, so I use...

- 4D
- Active 4D
- Arealist Pro

. . . thats it !! :)

> Others I am considering are:
> FLEX

Well, all I can say to that is 'what is FLEX ?'. :) I look forward to
the conclusions of your research if your at all willing to share them :)

One last thought on a positive note.

The industry consolidation that's currently going on is also putting
pressure on the market to formalize their IT infrastructure, thereby
increasing the size of the market, so it's not all bad news. New
company startups know from day one that they need 'systems' to be
competitive so they go shopping for them even before they start
trading. Old ones are forced to re-tool and still want to be 'lead'
through the process, so there will always be a market for good
consultants if they really think you are 'on their side'.

Cheers

Peter

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Re: Microsoft Dynamics

2008-05-12T01:54:10Z

Peter,

I too have looked at the tools and frameworks out there and agree with you
completely that there are many products that enable the creation of very
sophisticated solutions. As I see it two things have contributed to the
explosion of the market:

1) The development of open source solutions which are either free or very
low cost for deployment.
2) The globalisation of development meaning that a very competent
development team can be hired for the cost of a single developer at 10
years past prices.

So given a clear vision, good project management and good marketing a
project developed for one client can now be produced for many clients.

Looking under the hood of some of these applications I would characterise
them as either good or incredibly good. Some are a little obfuscated for my
liking (SugarCRM springs to mind) but they are none the less good.

I have also picked up the pieces of a number of small solutions written in
Access or 4D by independent developers who have more domain knowledge than
software development credentials. These are often inefficient calamities
which are causing the clients real pain by the time they have called in
help.

Whilst I know the competition is hot I am not quite ready to give up. I
know that my clients need what I am offering them (for now) and it is up to
me to deliver a solution that fits their needs. Sometimes that will involve
4D where I can balance the deployment costs with the fact that their need
can be delivered in less time.

Increasingly though I have to consider other options. Clearly I need a
toolset and have to make decisions as to what is in and what is out. Here
are my current primary tools:

4D 2003 & 2004 plus various plugins
PostgreSQL, MySQL & MS SQL Server
PHP & Classic ASP
DhtmlXGrid
Poseidon UML
JavaScript
Dreamweaver

Others I am considering are:
FLEX

In summary: Yes getting new clients is harder than it was 10 years ago but
not harder than 5 years ago and they are still knocking at my door
frequently enough for me to make a living at something I enjoy. I have
pretty much given up any dreams that I had of developing the killer vertical
market app and instead stick to delivering my clients with the best value I
can.

Maybe the future for us is to collaborate more on something that ould
benefit us all but agreeing on the toolset would probably a big challenge in
it's own right.

I need to stop these ramblings and get back to some work now.

Regards, Dougie

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Re: Microsoft Dynamics

2008-05-11T11:29:10Z

SalesForce.com is a CRM application, but Force.com is a developer
platform, and it covers just about the whole gamut of a developers
needs, from a Web2.0 front-end development, to a custom backend
language called Apex which is a hybrid of Java with built-in
extensions for the SQL database. Too much to explain here, but the
Force,com platform is anything but incomplete.

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 3:49 AM, Peter Jakobsson <lists@...> wrote:
> Hi Mehboob
>
> Thanks for the link - will have a look at that - looks interesting. As I
> understand it you basically use their application as a back end via SOAP
> calls for all the 'black box' stuff ?
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Re: Microsoft Dynamics

2008-05-10T00:49:00Z

Hi Mehboob

Thanks for the link - will have a look at that - looks interesting.
As I understand it you basically use their application as a back end
via SOAP calls for all the 'black box' stuff ?

Peter

On 10 May 2008, at 07:29, Mehboob Alam wrote:

> http://www.salesforce.com/platform/
>
> They have a pretty compelling platform and success stories to match.
> Unfortunately, the initial interest that 4D had in SalesForce
> integration has all but evaporated, and you're on your own if you try
> to interface an existing 4D solution to SalesForce via webservices.
>
> http://wiki.apexdevnet.com/index.php/
> CODA_Builds_On_Demand_Financial_Management_Service_on_Force.com
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Re: Microsoft Dynamics

2008-05-09T22:29:08Z

http://www.salesforce.com/platform/

They have a pretty compelling platform and success stories to match.
Unfortunately, the initial interest that 4D had in SalesForce
integration has all but evaporated, and you're on your own if you try
to interface an existing 4D solution to SalesForce via webservices.

http://wiki.apexdevnet.com/index.php/CODA_Builds_On_Demand_Financial_Management_Service_on_Force.com
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Microsoft Dynamics

2008-05-09T05:42:47Z

Hi All

Lately I've been taking a look around at software products of all types.

20 (even 10 ?) years ago you could approach a business and identify
loads of areas which needed custom solutions, or even, which
represented opportunities for vertical market products.

In addition to this, the mass market apps were'nt so great - you
often felt you could write something much better and the field was
'open' in a sense.

Recently I'm feeling like I'm an endangered species because:

A] Big commercial applications are so diverse and configurable that
they reach right into niche market areas and specific business
processes that used to be the domain of folks like ourselves

B] Software is becoming like the car industry - i.e. you need an army
of programmers, 10 years of development and a $100M marketing budget
to do anything significant

C] All that's left for independent developers is to 'glue' together
the big applications and feed them data

Have I miss-assessed the situation ?

I would be interested to hear if any of you have customers who have
looked at the 'big solutions' and turned away from them for whatever
reason (i.e. who didn't have the experience of the customer guy in
this video ...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPVrRiR0bxg

Regards

Peter

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Re: 4D 2003 EOL and 4D V11

2008-05-07T08:55:59Z

There was an general email that I saw on the NUG. It had links to
pricing information for v11, which is probably the last show that
needed to drop before the product started to ship.
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4D 2003 EOL and 4D V11

2008-05-07T08:39:42Z

Has anyone heard about 4D V11 Server shipping? I guess it must be
shipping end of the month - as one of my customers just received a
postcard saying that 4D will no longer sell or support 2003 after May
30th (and surely - 4D wouldn't drop support for "one product back" as
they have promised).

Of course I received no such notice (and I'm running 2003 developer);
then again - I know I've been "out of favor" for some time now...

So - what's the latest scoop?

best regards...
--
randy guttery

A Tender Tale - a page dedicated to those Ships and Crews
so vital to the United States Silent Service:
http://tendertale.com
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Re: Accounting question

2008-05-06T19:05:09Z

On 06/05/2008, at 7:44 PM, Dan Katz wrote:

>
> On Apr 29, 2008, at 4:37 PM, James Brown wrote:
>> Debtors: Credit $200
>> Bank: Debit $200
>
> Jim, are the US equivalents A/R and G/L?
>
> Dan

Yes, Trade Debtors is another word for Accounts Receivable.

No for Bank = GL; you can call Bank something like Cash at Bank, Cash
on Hand, Savings Account, or whatever. It is a Current Asset.

James.
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Re: Accounting question

2008-05-06T05:56:32Z

I assume you mean "Cash", not "G/L". I'm not aware of anyone that has a
"General Ledger" account in their...General Ledger....
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Re: Accounting question

2008-05-06T02:44:24Z

On Apr 29, 2008, at 4:37 PM, James Brown wrote:
> Debtors: Credit $200
> Bank: Debit $200

Jim, are the US equivalents A/R and G/L?

Dan

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dan Katz
Outside Technology
San Anselmo, CA

http://www.outsidetech.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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RE: Accounting question

2008-05-05T06:35:13Z

Please take me off this list...

Richard Agayoff
Staff Programmer Analyst
CA Dept of Corrections and Rehabilitation
Enterprise Information Services
Ward Information Network Project
(916) 358-2287 Office
(916) 358-2388 Fax

-----Original Message-----
From: 4d_biz-bounces@... [mailto:4d_biz-bounces@...]
On Behalf Of Tom Dillon
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:26 PM
To: 4D Biz
Subject: Re: Accounting question

Dan Katz sez:

>An invoice may bill for items that are applied to several different
>accounts, e.g. time billing, equipment, tax, etc.
>
>How should partial payments be posted to the accounts? Is it always
>proportional or are there other formulas?

You could give the user a preference as to how partial payments are
applied as a default (proportional, item order, lowest interest rate
first, by amount, etc.), then allow them to override the default and
apply any amount to each item, making sure, of course, that the total
matches the payment.

Or it could just pop up a flashing alert with instructions to call the
person making the payment and scream at them until they pay in full.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Accounting question

2008-04-30T18:38:55Z

Big thanks to all who responded. I'm now on my way to gaining a grasp
of the basics.

Dan

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dan Katz
Outside Technology
San Anselmo, CA

http://www.outsidetech.com
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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RE: Accounting question

2008-04-30T12:24:54Z

Dan,

Yes, this is a generally accepted principal.

As someone said, it's call accrual basis accounting vs cash basis accounting.

Most larger organizations do it this way.

************************************************
Randy Engle, Creative Director
EngSoft Solutions/XC2 Software
mailto:randy.engle@...
www.xc2software.com
************************************************

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 4d_biz-bounces@... [mailto:4d_biz-bounces@...] On
> Behalf Of Dan Katz
> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:57 PM
> To: 4D Biz
> Subject: Re: Accounting question
>
>
> On Apr 29, 2008, at 6:23 PM, Mikey wrote:
> > It is more a matter of how the debt is
> > accrued more than anything else.
>
> Most frequently, a deposit is placed with the order and the balance
> is paid on completion or billed after.
>
>
> > The easiest way to do this is when you book the sale book the
> > resulting
> > customer debt to Accounts Receivable. So, you would be crediting the
> > various sales accounts (consulting, equipment, sales tax collected,
> > etc.)
> > and debiting A/R, which is an asset.
>
> In essence, you take money that you haven't received from your left
> pocket and put it in your right and call it an asset? I bet this how
> those companies I own stock in show earnings.
>
> If this really is generally accepted procedure I can code for it. I'm
> uncomfortable that there's obviously some core principles I don't
> understand but I can live with that if the alternative is studying
> accounting for a few years.

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