1.3.6 schedule

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Gale Andrews
1.3.6 schedule
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As part of the Wiki changes for 1.3.5, I put up a holding page for
1.3.6:  
http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php?title=Release_Notes_1.3.6

the main reason for which is that it is linked to on:
http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php?title=Changes_since_1.3.5

in order to explain its purpose. Perhaps that specific link is not
necessary, we could just say "suitable for placing in the release notes
for the next Beta".

Anyway, LRN has commented on the Talk page for 1.3.6 Release Notes
that where I say "It is anticipated Audacity 1.3.6 will be released at the
end of May 2008" that "this is a bit misleading. There's no way a new
version could be ready in less than a month".

But if we are to have 1.3.6 before the end of the Summer, it *has* to be
out before or very soon after GSoC coding starts on the 26th May?


Gale


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LRN
Re: 1.3.6 schedule
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Gale Andrews wrote:
> But if we are to have 1.3.6 before the end of the Summer, it *has* to be
> out before or very soon after GSoC coding starts on the 26th May?
>    
When exactly is the "end of the Summer"?
But yes, if you want new version soon, it has to be before 26th May.
That would be in 17 days.
1.3.2: more than 5 months of lifetime
1.3.3: almost 6 months of lifetime
1.3.4: almost 6 months of lifetime
1.3.5: would be less than a month of lifetime
1.3.6: would be 3-4 months of lifetime (1.3.7 is expected to be released
shortly after GSoC ends).

Of course, if there is some serious issues with 1.3.5 which could be
fixed by 26 May then 1.3.6 must be released by all means.
On the other hand, 2-weekly alpha-versions will be produced during GSoC,
and first ones could theoretically include necessary fixes (for 1.3.5
bugs) without being unstable. I hope alphas will be public (else there's
no sense doing them), like - announced on Audacity website.
All in all, beta version is not necessary a snapshot of the HEAD. At any
time one can make a new branch and shape it into beta release with a few
well-placed patches (or by removing some not-well-placed patches).
By the way, as far as i understand only GSoC students will be busy with
new features, the rest of the team is free to fix anything, so
assumption that there will be no maintenance or bugfixes during GSoC is
not entierly correct.

That's my very IMHO.

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Vaughan Johnson
Re: 1.3.6 schedule
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Thanks for those updates, Gale.

I really don't know why 1.3.6  seems to be such a question, why you
continue to use "seem" and "intend" about it, nor why LRN feels
compelled to be so negative about it. We discussed it on this list
(primarily the "working towards a modular plugin based audacity" thread,
beginning April 24), and we agreed to do it, specifically as the first
modular build, before GSoC coding starts. There may have been some
details discussed only among the GSoC mentors/admins, but most was on
this list. And when we decide to do releases, especially with deadlines,
we get them done.

So what's the big question? Let's get to work on it.

Thanks,
Vaughan


Gale Andrews wrote:

> As part of the Wiki changes for 1.3.5, I put up a holding page for
> 1.3.6:  
> http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php?title=Release_Notes_1.3.6
>
> the main reason for which is that it is linked to on:
> http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php?title=Changes_since_1.3.5
>
> in order to explain its purpose. Perhaps that specific link is not
> necessary, we could just say "suitable for placing in the release notes
> for the next Beta".
>  
Yes, and on the website, lots of 1.3.5 instances could be 1.3.x or 1.3
and save us time on updates for new releases.

> Anyway, LRN has commented on the Talk page for 1.3.6 Release Notes
> that where I say "It is anticipated Audacity 1.3.6 will be released at the
> end of May 2008" that "this is a bit misleading. There's no way a new
> version could be ready in less than a month".
>
> But if we are to have 1.3.6 before the end of the Summer, it *has* to be
> out before or very soon after GSoC coding starts on the 26th May?
>
>
> Gale
>
>  

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Gale Andrews
Re: 1.3.6 schedule
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| From Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...>
| Thu, 08 May 2008 15:23:03 -0700
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.6 schedule

> I really don't know why 1.3.6  seems to be such a question, why you
> continue to use "seem" and "intend" about it, nor why LRN feels
> compelled to be so negative about it. We discussed it on this list
> (primarily the "working towards a modular plugin based audacity" thread,
> beginning April 24), and we agreed to do it, specifically as the first
> modular build, before GSoC coding starts. There may have been some
> details discussed only among the GSoC mentors/admins, but most was on
> this list. And when we decide to do releases, especially with deadlines,
> we get them done.
>
> So what's the big question? Let's get to work on it.

No big question on my part, but as I was puzzled by LRN's
comment (given 1.3.6 was I thought the opportunity for moving
to a modular build prior to GSoC) , I felt I should escalate to the list.

I do think on anything up on the web we should not have
"we will release by x". Who knows what might happen (despite
everyone's best efforts)?  So I feel "anticipate" is strong enough
at the moment.      

Re LRN's comment, am I still right thinking the "kick tyres" betas
during GSoC coding are essentially internal, i.e. not up on the
main website? That was my inference.

> Yes, and on the website, lots of 1.3.5 instances could be 1.3.x or 1.3
> and save us time on updates for new releases.

I don't think there are that many instances (?), but if we do publicise  
alphas/betas during GSoC then yes that's probably worth changing.



Thanks

Gale


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Vaughan Johnson
Re: 1.3.6 schedule
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Gale Andrews wrote:
> | ...
> I felt I should escalate to the list.
>  
Okay, no big deal. You were just trying to clarify. We are doing several
things differently these days, due to GSoC, and that's a *good* thing, imo.


> I do think on anything up on the web we should not have
> "we will release by x". Who knows what might happen (despite
> everyone's best efforts)?  So I feel "anticipate" is strong enough
> at the moment.      
>  
Yes, we are human and our plans can run afoul, but it's better to make
them, especially with explicit dates, than not. We certainly get more
things done that way.


> Re LRN's comment, am I still right thinking the "kick tyres" betas
> during GSoC coding are essentially internal, i.e. not up on the
> main website? That was my inference.
>  
We haven't discussed that explicitly here, but probably so. I don't see
posting them as a problem, but we should probably keep 1.3.5 up, even
after 1.3.6, because 1.3.6 will be substantial different, therefore less
tested than the latest few 1.3.x versions. We can designate 1.3.5 as
"semi-stable"?...

Thanks,

Vaughan


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Gale Andrews
Re: 1.3.6 schedule
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| From Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...>
| Fri, 09 May 2008 11:42:20 -0700
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.6 schedule
> > Re LRN's comment, am I still right thinking the "kick tyres" betas
> > during GSoC coding are essentially internal, i.e. not up on the
> > main website? That was my inference.
> >  
> We haven't discussed that explicitly here, but probably so. I don't see
> posting them as a problem, but we should probably keep 1.3.5 up, even
> after 1.3.6, because 1.3.6 will be substantial different, therefore less
> tested than the latest few 1.3.x versions. We can designate 1.3.5 as
> "semi-stable"?...

Just my 2 cents.

A disadvantage of suggesting greater stability of 1.3.5 vs. 1.3.6
(either by giving different nomenclature or keeping 1.3.5 and 1.3.6
prominently alongside each other as "alternatives") may be that
we get less feedback about 1.3.6, which we really do need. Maybe
we could limit ourselves to 1.3.5 being an "optional download"
on each platform's download page?

If we suspect the GSoC builds will be less stable than
"1.3.6 from end of May" (likely?), then I doubt we should post
those on the download pages of the main site. We could do so
perhaps on the developers pages of the main site and Wiki?

Why not go with LRN's idea of "alpha", which suggests potential lesser
stability compared to beta? If we want to name 1.3.6 differently to
1.3.5 then "end of May" is 1.3.6 alpha1 and GSoc builds 1.3.6
alpha2....n. If "end of May" is called 1.3.6 Beta then should the
GSoC builds be 1.3.7alpha1....n?


Gale
     

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Vaughan Johnson
Re: 1.3.6 schedule
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Gale Andrews wrote:

> | From Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...>
> | Fri, 09 May 2008 11:42:20 -0700
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.6 schedule
>  
>>> Re LRN's comment, am I still right thinking the "kick tyres" betas
>>> during GSoC coding are essentially internal, i.e. not up on the
>>> main website? That was my inference.
>>>  
>>>      
>> We haven't discussed that explicitly here, but probably so. I don't see
>> posting them as a problem, but we should probably keep 1.3.5 up, even
>> after 1.3.6, because 1.3.6 will be substantial different, therefore less
>> tested than the latest few 1.3.x versions. We can designate 1.3.5 as
>> "semi-stable"?...
>>    
>
> Just my 2 cents.
>
> A disadvantage of suggesting greater stability of 1.3.5 vs. 1.3.6
> (either by giving different nomenclature or keeping 1.3.5 and 1.3.6
> prominently alongside each other as "alternatives") may be that
> we get less feedback about 1.3.6, which we really do need. Maybe
> we could limit ourselves to 1.3.5 being an "optional download"
> on each platform's download page?
>
> If we suspect the GSoC builds will be less stable than
> "1.3.6 from end of May" (likely?), then I doubt we should post
> those on the download pages of the main site. We could do so
> perhaps on the developers pages of the main site and Wiki?
>
> Why not go with LRN's idea of "alpha", which suggests potential lesser
> stability compared to beta? If we want to name 1.3.6 differently to
> 1.3.5 then "end of May" is 1.3.6 alpha1 and GSoc builds 1.3.6
> alpha2....n. If "end of May" is called 1.3.6 Beta then should the
> GSoC builds be 1.3.7alpha1....n?
>
>  

I think 1.3.6 is likely to be less stable, and certainly less internally
tested (because of the switch in build type) than prior 1.3.x. And I
don't think we'd need a lot of feedback on modular build until after
GSoC. So, overall, I like the idea that the end-of-May release is
1.3.6a1 and the others during GSoC designated as 1.3.6a<n>. "Alpha"
traditionally meant "for internal distribution only, but with OSS, might
as well be open and post them as well, but keep 1.3.5 as the latest "beta".

(There's no need to spell out alpha -- one of the many traditional
version naming conventions is just two numbers and a possible suffix,
e.g.,  1.4a1, 1.4a2, 1.4a3, ..., 1.4b1, 1.4b2, ..., 1.4c1 (for release
Candidate), 1.4c2, ..., then 1.4 with no suffix for the stable release.
We've so far been adhering to the *nix convention that betas have the
2nd number, "release", as odd, but I think we loosely agreed to move
away from that, because most users find it confusing, or at least not
illuminating, vs suffixes.)

In the meantime, I changed Audacity.h to make the suffix "-alpha_<date>"
(which I think is too long), but we might consider "a_<date>" rather
than incrementing numbers, both because we wouldn't have to increment
the number manually for each one (date from __TDATE__ automatically),
and we won't have to check the date stamp on the EXE or the About box to
see when it was built.


Thanks,
Vaughan


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Gale Andrews
Re: 1.3.6 schedule
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| From Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...>
| Sun, 11 May 2008 18:09:31 -0700
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.6 schedule

> Gale Andrews wrote:
> > | From Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...>
> > | Fri, 09 May 2008 11:42:20 -0700
> > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.6 schedule
> > Just my 2 cents.
> >
> > A disadvantage of suggesting greater stability of 1.3.5 vs. 1.3.6
> > (either by giving different nomenclature or keeping 1.3.5 and 1.3.6
> > prominently alongside each other as "alternatives") may be that
> > we get less feedback about 1.3.6, which we really do need. Maybe
> > we could limit ourselves to 1.3.5 being an "optional download"
> > on each platform's download page?
> >
> > If we suspect the GSoC builds will be less stable than
> > "1.3.6 from end of May" (likely?), then I doubt we should post
> > those on the download pages of the main site. We could do so
> > perhaps on the developers pages of the main site and Wiki?
> >
> > Why not go with LRN's idea of "alpha", which suggests potential lesser
> > stability compared to beta? If we want to name 1.3.6 differently to
> > 1.3.5 then "end of May" is 1.3.6 alpha1 and GSoc builds 1.3.6
> > alpha2....n. If "end of May" is called 1.3.6 Beta then should the
> > GSoC builds be 1.3.7alpha1....n?
> >
> I think 1.3.6 is likely to be less stable, and certainly less internally
> tested (because of the switch in build type) than prior 1.3.x. And I
> don't think we'd need a lot of feedback on modular build until after
> GSoC.

Except that if there is a problem with 1.3.5a1 which we don't catch
ourselves before release, it would be better not to start building new
features on top of it?

> So, overall, I like the idea that the end-of-May release is
> 1.3.6a1 and the others during GSoC designated as 1.3.6a<n>. "Alpha"
> traditionally meant "for internal distribution only, but with OSS, might
> as well be open and post them as well, but keep 1.3.5 as the latest "beta".

We may well have differences in stability both between 1.3.5 and 1.3.6a1,
and between 1.3.6a1 and 1.3.6a(n). Anyway, for 1.3.6a1, how should we
play the main download page:
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/download/

At the moment we have two boxes "Stable: 1.2 - for all users" and
"Beta: 1.3 - for advanced users", and the sidebar says "Beta:1.3".
So first question: do we have three boxes with a new one for Alpha?
Or probably better, the "Beta" box becomes
"Unstable: 1.3 - for advanced users" (with comparable sidebar
change) and in the "Unstable" box we list 1.3.5 and 1.3.6a1?

What about the "Beta" pages for the three OS'es? Do we have a new
"alpha" warning, or (better?) work a stronger warning into the existing
Beta warning (and change "Beta version" on those pages to "Unstable
version)?

And on these pages is 1.3.6a1 the only "recommended download" and
1.3.5 "optional" (this is my preference), or both 1.3.6a1 and 1.3.5
recommended? Or perhaps when we have more clue about the
potential instability of 1.3.6a1, decide then?


Thanks

Gale  

 
 


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Vaughan Johnson
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Gale Andrews wrote:

> | From Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...>
> | Sun, 11 May 2008 18:09:31 -0700
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.6 schedule
>  
>> Gale Andrews wrote:
>>    
>>> | From Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...>
>>> | Fri, 09 May 2008 11:42:20 -0700
>>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.6 schedule
>>> Just my 2 cents.
>>>
>>> A disadvantage of suggesting greater stability of 1.3.5 vs. 1.3.6
>>> (either by giving different nomenclature or keeping 1.3.5 and 1.3.6
>>> prominently alongside each other as "alternatives") may be that
>>> we get less feedback about 1.3.6, which we really do need. Maybe
>>> we could limit ourselves to 1.3.5 being an "optional download"
>>> on each platform's download page?
>>>
>>> If we suspect the GSoC builds will be less stable than
>>> "1.3.6 from end of May" (likely?), then I doubt we should post
>>> those on the download pages of the main site. We could do so
>>> perhaps on the developers pages of the main site and Wiki?
>>>
>>> Why not go with LRN's idea of "alpha", which suggests potential lesser
>>> stability compared to beta? If we want to name 1.3.6 differently to
>>> 1.3.5 then "end of May" is 1.3.6 alpha1 and GSoc builds 1.3.6
>>> alpha2....n. If "end of May" is called 1.3.6 Beta then should the
>>> GSoC builds be 1.3.7alpha1....n?
>>>
>>>      
>> I think 1.3.6 is likely to be less stable, and certainly less internally
>> tested (because of the switch in build type) than prior 1.3.x. And I
>> don't think we'd need a lot of feedback on modular build until after
>> GSoC.
>>    
>
> Except that if there is a problem with 1.3.5a1 which we don't catch
> ourselves before release, it would be better not to start building new
> features on top of it?
>  

I wasn't saying not to post the end-of-May build. But I think
designating it 1.3.6a1 makes more sense than a beta replacing 1.3.5.

>  
>> So, overall, I like the idea that the end-of-May release is
>> 1.3.6a1 and the others during GSoC designated as 1.3.6a<n>. "Alpha"
>> traditionally meant "for internal distribution only, but with OSS, might
>> as well be open and post them as well, but keep 1.3.5 as the latest "beta".
>>    
>
> We may well have differences in stability both between 1.3.5 and 1.3.6a1,
> and between 1.3.6a1 and 1.3.6a(n). Anyway, for 1.3.6a1, how should we
> play the main download ...
>
> ... Or perhaps when we have more clue about the
> potential instability of 1.3.6a1, decide then?
>
>  
Yes, I think we'll have a better idea how to proceed once we have it
working, and I know some people are off-list for a few days, so let's
decide in a week. It *might* be good enough to just post as 1.3.6 (beta)
and the GSoC builds can be 1.3.7a<n>.


I think it would be ideal to release this 1.3.6<x> on 5/26, the day GSoC
students are officially supposed to start coding, not least because we
can then focus fully on the students. Toward that, I think we should set
the string freeze for 5/19, and code freeze on 5/22. That is, on 5/22
start building rc's and fix only bugs between then and 5/26.

- Vaughan

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Gale Andrews
Re: 1.3.6 schedule
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| From Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...>
| Mon, 12 May 2008 14:46:50 -0700
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.6 schedule

> Gale Andrews wrote:
> > | From Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...>
> > | Sun, 11 May 2008 18:09:31 -0700
> > | Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.6 schedule
> >> Gale Andrews wrote:
> >>> | From Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...>
> >>> | Fri, 09 May 2008 11:42:20 -0700
> >>> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.6 schedule
> >> I think 1.3.6 is likely to be less stable, and certainly less internally
> >> tested (because of the switch in build type) than prior 1.3.x. And I
> >> don't think we'd need a lot of feedback on modular build until after
> >> GSoC.
> >>    
> >
> > Except that if there is a problem with 1.3.6a1 which we don't catch
> > ourselves before release, it would be better not to start building new
> > features on top of it?
> >  
>
> I wasn't saying not to post the end-of-May build. But I think
> designating it 1.3.6a1 makes more sense than a beta replacing 1.3.5.

I probably agree too on the whole, from what we can guess now.
But whenever we change to an alpha (a) designation, not everyone
will understand what it means (because it's less common to see
alpha builds publicly available), so it will need a crafted explanation
so that more than a few "geeks" bother to try it. This is the more so
if a Beta is still directly linked to (more or less prominently) on the
main site, though I think doing so is right.  

To the user who just casually looks at the interface and the features
of "1.3.6 end of May" though, won't it look more like 1.3.5 than 1.3.6
GSoC build#n will look like 1.3.6 end of May?

>>  We may well have differences in stability both between 1.3.5 and
> > 1.3.6a1, and between 1.3.6a1 and 1.3.6a(n). Anyway, for 1.3.6a1,
> > how should we play the main download ...
> >
> > ... Or perhaps when we have more clue about the
> > potential instability of 1.3.6a1, decide then?
> Yes, I think we'll have a better idea how to proceed once we have it
> working, and I know some people are off-list for a few days, so let's
> decide in a week. It *might* be good enough to just post as 1.3.6 (beta)
> and the GSoC builds can be 1.3.7a<n>.
>
> I think it would be ideal to release this 1.3.6<x> on 5/26, the day GSoC
> students are officially supposed to start coding, not least because we
> can then focus fully on the students. Toward that, I think we should set
> the string freeze for 5/19, and code freeze on 5/22. That is, on 5/22
> start building rc's and fix only bugs between then and 5/26.

Understood, thanks.


Gale

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David Bailes-2
Re: 1.3.6 schedule
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Hi,

On 5/12/08, Vaughan Johnson <vaughan@...> wrote:

>
> I wasn't saying not to post the end-of-May build. But I think
> designating it 1.3.6a1 makes more sense than a beta replacing 1.3.5.

If, due to unforeseen circumstances, there's time time to fix some of
the bugs in the keyboard user interface that crept into 1.3.5, then a
1.3.6 beta (or whatever it's called) release may well be of value to
keyboard users,

David.

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