1.3.5 rc6: minor problem with shorcuts for move cursor etc.

[David Bailes-2]

This concerns the behaviour of the following shortcuts for the
commands on the edit menu:
move cursor->to track start  j
move cursor->to track end  k
select->track start to cursor  shift + j
select->cursor to track end  shift + k

If no tracks are selected:

If the option "select all audio in project, if none selected" is not
checked, and you type any of the shortcuts, you get a message box
saying "disallowed for some reason. Try selecting some audio first?".
It should say that at least one track should be selected.

If the option "select all audio in project, if none selected" is
checked, and you type any of the shortcuts, all of the tracks are
selected and then the command is executed. I'm not sure if the user
would expect that to happen or not.


In passing, if "select all, if none" is checked, and no audio is
selected, then some commands on the edit menu are unavailable, but
their shortcuts work, eg silence.

David.

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[Gale Andrews]

| From "David Bailes" <drbailes@...>
| Tue, 6 May 2008 18:13:32 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.5 rc6: minor problem with shorcuts for move cursor etc.
|  > This concerns the behaviour of the following shortcuts for the

> commands on the edit menu:
> move cursor->to track start  j
> move cursor->to track end  k
> select->track start to cursor  shift + j
> select->cursor to track end  shift + k
>
> If no tracks are selected:
>
> If the option "select all audio in project, if none selected" is not
> checked, and you type any of the shortcuts, you get a message box
> saying "disallowed for some reason. Try selecting some audio first?".
> It should say that at least one track should be selected.

Hi David

It's been mentioned a few times that this generic error message
(put in to help people who were trying to do things with no
audio selected) needs tidying up. It's largely superfluous now
for power users who turn off the default "select-all-on-none"
preference, and can mislead when it does appear. From Release
Checklist Not Aiming:

"Try to remove all un-necessary (or all) "Disallowed for some reason -
try selecting some audio first?" error messages". Two known cases where
it occurs: (1) using shortcuts which are not valid at time of use e.g.
CTRL + V with empty clipboard (2) Unmodified ENTER on any selected
Toolbar button"

So your case is an example of (1). If in 1.2.6 you added a shortcut for
Move Cursor to Track Start in the Keyboard Preferences, then tried  
to use it with no track selected, nothing would happen. It would be
nice to turn off the generic "disallowed" message when an invalid      
shortcut is used, but i don't think it's a current priority, and I guess
some sighted users might even prefer the 1.2.6 "nothing happens"
at least until there is some master switch to turn warnings off?
 


> If the option "select all audio in project, if none selected" is
> checked, and you type any of the shortcuts, all of the tracks are
> selected and then the command is executed. I'm not sure if the user
> would expect that to happen or not.

I think the overall consensus was that a simple, "all audio in project
means that" implementation was best for the novice users it was
aimed at.


> In passing, if "select all, if none" is checked, and no audio is
> selected, then some commands on the edit menu are unavailable, but
> their shortcuts work, eg silence.

The non-availability of some menu commands with "select-all-on-none"
enabled is noted in the README "known issues", and on Release Checklist
as a Priority Aim To.


Gale

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[David Bailes-2]

Hi Gale,

On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote:

>
> > If the option "select all audio in project, if none selected" is
> > checked, and you type any of the shortcuts, all of the tracks are
> > selected and then the command is executed. I'm not sure if the user
> > would expect that to happen or not.
>
> I think the overall consensus was that a simple, "all audio in project
> means that" implementation was best for the novice users it was
> aimed at.

The thing I was unsure about is that in this case no audio is being
selected, only tracks.

David.

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[Gale Andrews]

| From "David Bailes" <drbailes@...>
| Wed, 7 May 2008 11:27:46 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.5 rc6: minor problem with shorcuts for move cursor etc.

> On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > > If the option "select all audio in project, if none selected" is
> > > checked, and you type any of the shortcuts, all of the tracks are
> > > selected and then the command is executed. I'm not sure if the user
> > > would expect that to happen or not.
> >
> > I think the overall consensus was that a simple, "all audio in project
> > means that" implementation was best for the novice users it was
> > aimed at.
>
> The thing I was unsure about is that in this case no audio is being
> selected, only tracks.

Sorry David, I'm now quite with you. I've got two tracks open, none
selected because I clicked outside them. If I do SHIFT + J, the effect
is the same as Select All, because it cannot really do much else: both
tracks and all audio is selected.

If I click outside again and do CTRL + L, the audio of both tracks is
silenced. I'm left with both tracks and all their "audio" selected, so I
can now Generate > Tone for example to fill them with a tone.

What I am finding is that this does not work every single time;
sometimes I have to click on the root of the Edit menu (without
doing anything in it), then CTRL + L works. Same with CTRL + D.

An Edit menu item like CTRL + X which is enabled even when
clicking outside the track (as all selection-relevant commands
should be) always works.

Does this help?


Gale  

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[David Bailes-2]

Hi Gale,

On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote:
> > > > If the option "select all audio in project, if none selected" is
> > > > checked, and you type any of the shortcuts, all of the tracks are
> > > > selected and then the command is executed. I'm not sure if the user
> > > > would expect that to happen or not.
>
> Sorry David, I'm now quite with you. I've got two tracks open, none
> selected because I clicked outside them. If I do SHIFT + J, the effect
> is the same as Select All, because it cannot really do much else: both
> tracks and all audio is selected.

Starting with no tracks selected, if you press J, then all tracks are
selected, and the cursor is moved to the start of the selected tracks.
The user is not selecting audio - do they expect tracks to be selected
if none selected?

> If I click outside again and do CTRL + L, the audio of both tracks is
> silenced. I'm left with both tracks and all their "audio" selected, so I
> can now Generate > Tone for example to fill them with a tone.
>
> What I am finding is that this does not work every single time;
> sometimes I have to click on the root of the Edit menu (without
> doing anything in it), then CTRL + L works. Same with CTRL + D.

Yes that happens to me too. First time it works, but if I undo, then
CTRL + L doesn't work. Pressing ALT, ALT to move to the menu bar and
back, also causes it to work again. There's
a similar problem with shift + j, and shift + k.

David.

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[Gale Andrews]

| From "David Bailes" <drbailes@...>
| Thu, 8 May 2008 12:08:40 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.5 rc6: minor problem with shorcuts for move cursor etc.

> On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote:
> > Sorry David, I'm not quite with you. I've got two tracks open, none
> > selected because I clicked outside them. If I do SHIFT + J, the effect
> > is the same as Select All, because it cannot really do much else: both
> > tracks and all audio is selected.
>
> Starting with no tracks selected, if you press J, then all tracks are
> selected, and the cursor is moved to the start of the selected tracks.
> The user is not selecting audio - do they expect tracks to be selected
> if none selected?

I see, I thought we were discussing SHIFT + J.  I think this is
probably a "reasonable" by-product of enabling "select-all-on-none"
in Preferences. If that preference is off, and you do J with no
tracks selected, nothing happens bar the dreaded "disallowed"
message.

Moving the cursor to track start is always going to select the track,
so if something useful is to happen when you do J with none out
of multiple tracks selected, then selecting all of them seems the
best assumption? If I want to get to that position from no tracks
selected state, there are a few steps involved if I'm not allowed to
just use J.

Similarly if there actually were bindings for the Tracks > Align
commands, I'd be glad to be able to use one of those hotkeys
from a no-tracks-selected position. Obviously this is from a "lazy
sighted user" perspective.

I suspect this behaviour of J working despite its menu item being
greyed is an accident of it being in the edit menu which was
doctored for "select-all-on-none". I agree it's a bit inconsistent
given the preference does not say "Select all tracks or audio in
project, if none selected" and I assume that could not actually
happen without further changes. However I think it's "implied" by
the current wording, and if the wording did mean "select all tracks
without selecting audio" in all relevant cases, it might actually be
useful.

But from where we are now, more useful to leave "as is"?



Gale    

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[David Bailes-2]

Hi Gale,

On 5/8/08, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote:

> But from where we are now, more useful to leave "as is"?

Yes, my main aim was to draw attention to the current behaviour.

Another option might have been to have two options instead of the
single select all audio option. I mean, why make things simple when
they can easily be made more complicated. The two options being:
- Select all tracks if none selected.
- Select a time-range for the selected tracks, if none selected.

This might have given people more control, but is clearly more
complex. Only a thought, and any connection with reality is completely
unintensional.

David.

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[Gale Andrews]

| From "David Bailes" <drbailes@...>
| Fri, 9 May 2008 14:36:56 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.5 rc6: minor problem with shorcuts for
| move cursor etc.
> Another option might have been to have two options instead of the
> single select all audio option. I mean, why make things simple when
> they can easily be made more complicated. The two options being:
> - Select all tracks if none selected.
> - Select a time-range for the selected tracks, if none selected.
>
> This might have given people more control, but is clearly more
> complex. Only a thought, and any connection with reality is completely
> unintensional.

Hi David

Does the first option select all the audio in all the tracks, like
CRL + A, or just select all the tracks, like SHIFT and down/up
arrow?

In the second option, what time range is to be selected for the selected
tracks, given no time range is selected? Is this the option for the
novice who has one track (selected), with no selection region but just
the cursor in the middle of the track, who wants to do vocal
removal on the whole track without explicitly having to select all
its audio?
 
And are these two options single-choice radio buttons, or checkboxes
where you can check one, both or none?  I think we've only discussed
devising one option before. Two options (with an "extreme" one on
by default) might be an avenue worth discussing?  Any changes for
longer term implementation of course.



Gale

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[David Bailes-2]

Hi,

On 5/9/08, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote:

>
> | From "David Bailes" <drbailes@...>
> | Fri, 9 May 2008 14:36:56 +0100
> | Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.5 rc6: minor problem with shorcuts for
> | move cursor etc.
>> Another option might have been to have two options instead of the
>> single select all audio option. I mean, why make things simple when
>> they can easily be made more complicated. The two options being:
>> - Select all tracks if none selected.
>> - Select a time-range for the selected tracks, if none selected.
>>
>> This might have given people more control, but is clearly more
>> complex. Only a thought, and any connection with reality is completely
>> unintensional.
>
> Hi David
>
> Does the first option select all the audio in all the tracks, like
> CRL + A, or just select all the tracks, like SHIFT and down/up
> arrow?

it just selects the tracks


> In the second option, what time range is to be selected for the selected
> tracks, given no time range is selected? Is this the option for the
> novice who has one track (selected), with no selection region but just
> the cursor in the middle of the track, who wants to do vocal
> removal on the whole track without explicitly having to select all
> its audio?

Yes, the time range would cover all the audio in the selected tracks.
I think this option, with the other option off might also be useful to
advanced users.
>
> And are these two options single-choice radio buttons, or checkboxes
> where you can check one, both or none?

They're independent check boxes. With both checked, this would be
similar, but not identical, to the current option checked. More
advanced users could then either uncheck both or only one. As I said
above, I think the second option on it's own may be of interest to
advanced users - you can apply an effect, or copy all the audio in the
selected tracks without first having to select a time-range.


David.

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[Gale Andrews]

| From "David Bailes" <drbailes@...>
| Sat, 10 May 2008 09:53:17 +0100
| Subject: [Audacity-devel] 1.3.5 rc6: minor problem with shorcuts for move cursor etc.

> On 5/9/08, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote:
> >> Another option might have been to have two options instead of the
> >> single select all audio option. I mean, why make things simple when
> >> they can easily be made more complicated. The two options being:
> >> - Select all tracks if none selected.
> >> - Select a time-range for the selected tracks, if none selected.
> >>
> >
> > Does the first option select all the audio in all the tracks, like
> > CRL + A, or just select all the tracks, like SHIFT and down/up
> > arrow?
>
> it just selects the tracks
>
> > In the second option, what time range is to be selected for the selected
> > tracks, given no time range is selected? Is this the option for the
> > novice who has one track (selected), with no selection region but just
> > the cursor in the middle of the track, who wants to do vocal
> > removal on the whole track without explicitly having to select all
> > its audio?
>
> Yes, the time range would cover all the audio in the selected tracks.
> I think this option, with the other option off might also be useful to
> advanced users.
> >
> > And are these two options single-choice radio buttons, or checkboxes
> > where you can check one, both or none?
>
> They're independent check boxes. With both checked, this would be
> similar, but not identical, to the current option checked. More
> advanced users could then either uncheck both or only one. As I said
> above, I think the second option on it's own may be of interest to
> advanced users - you can apply an effect, or copy all the audio in the
> selected tracks without first having to select a time-range.

If both options are on by default, and the second is called "In selected
tracks, select all audio if none selected", I like this, and don't object
on behalf of a.n.novice (though I think they will find it a bit harder
to understand if they do actually look at the preferences).  At the cost
of another preference, it may even be the longer term answer to this?
For example with the first option enabled, I might be able to lazily
align all my tracks together from "none selected" state without
having to select them, because the menu items would be enabled?

What do others think, especially advanced users who turn the current
single preference off?


Gale


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