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[vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
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[vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Dennis Smith
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We have a potential client (big) who was a client
of ours using an old unix/rdbms solution, but went elsewhere for a new system. The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed, and they had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large consultant. They have now come to us and said they want us to provide a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know we use Smalltalk because of the consultant I suspect. Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle", has to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with "anything but Smalltalk". We use VW and Gemstone. I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use, but I just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how one might answer this type of thing?? -- Dennis Smith +1 416.798.7948 Cherniak Software Development Corporation Fax: +1 416.798.0948 509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East dennis@... Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8 sip:dennis@... Canada http://www.CherniakSoftware.com Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Nowak, Helge
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THX Joachim,
that was exactly what I was going to write. Cheers Helge -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: vwnc-bounces@... [mailto:vwnc-bounces@...] Im Auftrag von Joachim Tuchel Gesendet: Montag, 6. Oktober 2008 16:34 An: vwnc@...; dennis@... Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions? No new thoughts here, sorry. But isn't the fact that the consultant audited you and found some good points about you partly because you use a certain technology and seem to have success with it. Why not say that you wouldn't be the same you if you used another technology? And maybe it's better to not get the job than risking to fail just because the customer forced you into a technology that makes you no better than your competition... It's funny that customers sometomes care about things that they shouldn't think about at all. If you can do better than your competition by using Smalltalk, then why bother? >The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed, and they >had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large consultant. Do you have access to the arguments against Smalltalk? >They have now come to us and said they want us to provide a solution, >but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know we use Smalltalk >because of the consultant I suspect. Hmmm. Not risking anything, I'd probably suggest being aggressive here and try to show why the combination of Smalltalk and you is a good thing - obviously even in the eyes of the consultant... >I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use, but I >just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how one might answer >this type of thing?? Good luck! Joachim -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@... Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Travis Griggs-3
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On Oct 6, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Dennis Smith wrote:
> We have a potential client (big) who was a client > of ours using an old unix/rdbms solution, but went > elsewhere for a new system. > > The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed, > and they had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large > consultant. > > They have now come to us and said they want us to provide > a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know > we use Smalltalk because of the consultant I suspect. > > Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle", > has to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with > "anything but Smalltalk". We use VW and Gemstone. > > I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use, > but I just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how > one might answer this type of thing?? Use Self. And charge them double for it. -- Travis Griggs Objologist "It had better be a pretty good meeting, to be better than no meeting at all" - Boyd K Packer _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Stefan Schmiedl
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On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:54:59 -0400
Dennis Smith <dennis@...> wrote: > Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle", > has to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with > "anything but Smalltalk". We use VW and Gemstone. > > I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use, > but I just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how > one might answer this type of thing?? > They probably heard too much about Smalltalk dying of old age and not enough of the buzz around it caused by new, cool applications like dabbleDB, Seaside, AIDA. If all else fails, go for Ruby and use the version currently being developed on top of gemstone. Sneakily, s. _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by James Robertson-7
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What might help is that Gartner now classifies Smalltalk as "mature" -
which they might listen to as a positive sign. James Robertson Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library On Oct 6, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Stefan Schmiedl wrote: > On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:54:59 -0400 > Dennis Smith <dennis@...> wrote: > >> Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle", >> has to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with >> "anything but Smalltalk". We use VW and Gemstone. >> >> I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use, >> but I just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how >> one might answer this type of thing?? >> > > They probably heard too much about Smalltalk dying of old age > and not enough of the buzz around it caused by new, cool applications > like dabbleDB, Seaside, AIDA. > > If all else fails, go for Ruby and use the version currently being > developed on top of gemstone. > > Sneakily, > s. > _______________________________________________ > vwnc mailing list > vwnc@... > http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc > _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Dennis Smith
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Stefan Schmiedl wrote: Unfortunately, we are a small company and we concentrate on our base applications andOn Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:54:59 -0400 Dennis Smith dennis@... wrote: our tools which are VW and GS. For us its likely go or no-go (no-go if its not our base) :( For example, we have a complete accounting package and payroll package, both of which would be part of the system we would install -- its a "people visiting homes" scheduling system, with accounts and payroll integrated. Sneakily, s. _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc -- Dennis Smith +1 416.798.7948 Cherniak Software Development Corporation Fax: +1 416.798.0948 509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East dennis@... Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8 sip:dennis@... Canada http://www.CherniakSoftware.com Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Dennis Smith
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Joachim Tuchel wrote: Just reading thoughts like the above helps me to think -- so thanks to all who have responded so far.No new thoughts here, sorry. But isn't the fact that the consultant audited you and found some good points about you partly because you use a certain technology and seem to have success with it. Why not say that you wouldn't be the same you if you used another technology? And maybe it's better to not get the job than risking to fail just because the customer forced you into a technology that makes you no better than your competition... It's funny that customers sometomes care about things that they shouldn't think about at all. If you can do better than your competition by using Smalltalk, then why bother? -- Dennis Smith +1 416.798.7948 Cherniak Software Development Corporation Fax: +1 416.798.0948 509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East dennis@... Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8 sip:dennis@... Canada http://www.CherniakSoftware.com Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Dennis Smith
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Travis Griggs wrote: Actually we thought about using C# and .NET and charging 10x :)On Oct 6, 2008, at 6:54 AM, Dennis Smith wrote: Actually not that far off -- C# and .NET are what the consultant uses -- and 10x may be a bit much -- maybe 5x -- but we don't want to go there -- want to stay with VW and GS :) -- Travis Griggs Objologist "It had better be a pretty good meeting, to be better than no meeting at all" - Boyd K Packer _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc -- Dennis Smith +1 416.798.7948 Cherniak Software Development Corporation Fax: +1 416.798.0948 509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East dennis@... Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8 sip:dennis@... Canada http://www.CherniakSoftware.com Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Dennis Smith
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Yes I as thinking about that over the weekend -- is there a url that
points to that???
James Robertson wrote: What might help is that Gartner now classifies Smalltalk as "mature" - which they might listen to as a positive sign. James Robertson Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library On Oct 6, 2008, at 11:01 AM, Stefan Schmiedl wrote:On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 09:54:59 -0400 Dennis Smith dennis@... wrote: -- Dennis Smith +1 416.798.7948 Cherniak Software Development Corporation Fax: +1 416.798.0948 509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East dennis@... Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8 sip:dennis@... Canada http://www.CherniakSoftware.com Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Alan Knight-2
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Figure out what it would cost you to redo the infrastructure
you have in something else and the lost productivity, throw in a
multiplier, and add it to your estimate. Either they reconsider, or they
pay you so ridiculously much money it'd be worth it to do it in assembler
:-)
At 09:54 AM 10/6/2008, Dennis Smith wrote: We have a potential client (big) who was a client --
Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
_______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Dennis Smith
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Alan Knight wrote: Figure out what it would cost you to redo the infrastructure you have in something else and the lost productivity, throw in a multiplier, and add it to your estimate. Either they reconsider, or they pay you so ridiculously much money it'd be worth it to do it in assembler :-)We have actually thought along those lines (not assembler although I USED to be expert at a few of them). We really don't want to -- and I don't think they would want to pay the costs either -- or take the date/time hit.
-- Dennis Smith +1 416.798.7948 Cherniak Software Development Corporation Fax: +1 416.798.0948 509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East dennis@... Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8 sip:dennis@... Canada http://www.CherniakSoftware.com Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Rob Vens-2
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An approach might also include mentioning that "Why Smalltalk" (or, in their case, "Why **not** Smalltalk") 10 years ago might be different from now. Smalltalk has changed, is going through a new rise of popularity, has cool new frameworks (Seaside, iPhone), etc. I think it is necessary to get them to look at the various propositions afresh instead of from preconceived ideas, and the suggestion that Smalltalk has changed enough for them to look again might work.
2008/10/6 Dennis Smith <dennis@...> We have a potential client (big) who was a client _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Andreas Tönne
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Dennis,
you have seen some good answers already and surely in such a situation anything pro Smalltalk is ignored; you have to talk about "pro yourself". The consultant has a conflict of interests and the client is burnt and scared. You have been asked because you are seen as someone who did not fail the client in the past. You are kind of the last straw if I understand the situation correctly. Do whatever is necessary to show the client: we want to rescue you. Take the client's fear from him. Part of this story is to tell the client and the consultant that you are successful because you use a technology that you fully understand, have trust that it will not fail you and has proven to be you silver bullet. Use any argument pro Smalltalk but effectively say: we and Smalltalk are a proven team. You cannot have one without the other because WE DO NOT LIKE TO FAIL IN PROJECTS. James reference to the Gartner rating is very helpful here. Talk about the resurgence of dynamic languages, what is important about them for project success. Talk about the promise of Ruby and that Smalltalk carries the same promise. But any detailed argument about their objection against Smalltalk needs more knowledge of what FUD was spread by the consultant. Show them that you accept to loose the deal if securing the deal would mean to give up your principles and uniqueness. It is soft skills time now, not technical facts. Andreas Am 06.10.2008 15:54 Uhr schrieb "Dennis Smith" unter <dennis@...>: > We have a potential client (big) who was a client > of ours using an old unix/rdbms solution, but went > elsewhere for a new system. > > The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed, > and they had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large > consultant. > > They have now come to us and said they want us to provide > a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know > we use Smalltalk because of the consultant I suspect. > > Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle", > has to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with > "anything but Smalltalk". We use VW and Gemstone. > > I have stuff from the past re "why smalltalk" which we will use, > but I just wondered if anyone had any "new thoughts" on how > one might answer this type of thing?? -- Andreas Tönne Lead Consultant Cincom Systems GmbH & Co. oHG Tel.: +49 6196 9003 100 Mobile: +49 172 6159272 Fax: +49 6196 9003 270 Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653) Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent: Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRB 5069) _______________________________________________ vwnc mailing list vwnc@... http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc |
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Re: [vwnc] Anything but Smalltalk -- suggestions?
by Dennis Smith
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Well -- I worried about this all weekend, and suddenly realized this
morning that there are other "smalltalk friends" out there, why am I not asking them -- and it has proven very fruitful -- thank you to everyone!! Andreas Tönne wrote: Dennis, you have seen some good answers already and surely in such a situation anything pro Smalltalk is ignored; you have to talk about "pro yourself". The consultant has a conflict of interests and the client is burnt and scared. You have been asked because you are seen as someone who did not fail the client in the past. You are kind of the last straw if I understand the situation correctly. Do whatever is necessary to show the client: we want to rescue you. Take the client's fear from him. Part of this story is to tell the client and the consultant that you are successful because you use a technology that you fully understand, have trust that it will not fail you and has proven to be you silver bullet. Use any argument pro Smalltalk but effectively say: we and Smalltalk are a proven team. You cannot have one without the other because WE DO NOT LIKE TO FAIL IN PROJECTS. James reference to the Gartner rating is very helpful here. Talk about the resurgence of dynamic languages, what is important about them for project success. Talk about the promise of Ruby and that Smalltalk carries the same promise. But any detailed argument about their objection against Smalltalk needs more knowledge of what FUD was spread by the consultant. Show them that you accept to loose the deal if securing the deal would mean to give up your principles and uniqueness. It is soft skills time now, not technical facts. Andreas Am 06.10.2008 15:54 Uhr schrieb "Dennis Smith" unter dennis@...:We have a potential client (big) who was a client of ours using an old unix/rdbms solution, but went elsewhere for a new system. The client is potential now because the "elsewhere" failed, and they had that and themselves (and us) audited by a large consultant. They have now come to us and said they want us to provide a solution, but "we don't want Smalltalk" -- they only know we use Smalltalk because of the consultant I suspect. Anyway, we have dealt with "Has to be Java", "has to be Oracle", has to be "Windows" etc -- we have never dealt with "anything but Smallta |
