[Fwd: Who needs an HDTV?]

[Bill Horne-9]

I got this submission to the Telecom Digest, and I'd like to know who's
used these on a Linux machine, or what other cards you've used.

I'm also curious about resolution: Bray says computer monitors are "not
up there with a true HDTV set", and I want to know why.

TIA.

Bill Horne

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Who needs an HDTV?
Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 01:52:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Monty Solomon <monty@...>
Organization: The Telecom Digest
Newsgroups: comp.dcom.telecom


TECH LAB
Who needs an HDTV?

By Hiawatha Bray  |  May 8, 2008

Given the feeble state of the economy, many of you are in no mood to
blow $1,000 or more on a high-definition TV set. But then, you
probably own one already.

It's called a computer monitor. The typical monitor can display HD
video of respectable quality - not up there with a true HDTV set, but
not bad. All you need now is a fairly robust personal computer, and a
digital TV tuner that plugs into a USB port and captures the video
signals.

We've been trying out a couple of these tuners - the $99 Hauppauge
WinTV-HVR-950Q from Hauppauge Computer Works Inc. and the $129 PCTV
HD Ultimate Stick from Pinnacle Systems, a division of Avid
Technology Inc. in Tewksbury. These are list prices, by the way; shop
around and you'll likely find them for less.

Each gadget comes with a simple antenna that'll capture both analog
and digital TV signals being broadcast over the airwaves. Both
devices are made for computers running Microsoft Corp.'s Windows
operating system. But Hauppauge and Pinnacle offer similar tuners for
Apple Inc.'s Macintosh machines.

...

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2008/05/08/who_needs_an_hdtv/


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William Warren Consulting
Computer & Network Installations and Service
781-784-7287


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[Dan Ritter-2]

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 09:45:38AM -0400, Bill Horne wrote:
> I got this submission to the Telecom Digest, and I'd like to know who's
> used these on a Linux machine, or what other cards you've used.
>
> I'm also curious about resolution: Bray says computer monitors are "not
> up there with a true HDTV set", and I want to know why.

I have an HDHomeRun, from Silicon Digital. Two tuners, an IR
receiver, and connected via 100Mb/s ethernet. It works very
nicely with Linux, OS X and (people say) Windows. Picks up
over-the-air channels with an antenna, and unscrambled QAM from
cable.

Bray is frequently pushing an agenda, and usually one I disagree with. A
720P LCD HDTV is identical to a 1280x768 LCD monitor, plus a tuner and
some video conversion. A 1080P LCD HDTV is just like a 1900x1080 LCD
monitor, with a tuner and more video conversion. HDTVs come with
DVI or HDMI inputs, and so do LCD monitors.

On the other hand, I don't think anyone sells a plasma
monitor... but many plasma TVs come with VGA and DVI ports.

-dsr-

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[Ben Holland]

Alright, it has to do with resolution and refresh rate. A 720i/p HD set gets
1280x720, a 1080i/p gets 1920x1080 resolution, both of which can be attained
by a computer monitor but honestly to get a flat planel at 1920x1080 native
resolution is by no means cheep. Now here comes the kicker, 60fps. A 1080i/p
gets 1920x1080 at 60fps (well drop 60 but who cares), to get that, esp while
video gaming, requires a kick ass graphics card... like professional
quality... the stuff we use at work because I work at a media company and
never would afford at home, even so we can't get our output at 1080i/p res
yet... soon but not yet. Now, a 1280x720 is doable... my monitor at home
gets 1680x1080 and I can sorta game at native screen using a moderate
graphics card, if I got a brand new 500$ one I prolly could... if I got an
sli I definitely could. So thats the deal. ~Ben

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Bill Horne <bill@...> wrote:

> I got this submission to the Telecom Digest, and I'd like to know who's
> used these on a Linux machine, or what other cards you've used.
>
> I'm also curious about resolution: Bray says computer monitors are "not up
> there with a true HDTV set", and I want to know why.
>
> TIA.
>
> Bill Horne
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Who needs an HDTV?
> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 01:52:08 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Monty Solomon <monty@...>
> Organization: The Telecom Digest
> Newsgroups: comp.dcom.telecom
>
>
> TECH LAB
> Who needs an HDTV?
>
> By Hiawatha Bray  |  May 8, 2008
>
> Given the feeble state of the economy, many of you are in no mood to
> blow $1,000 or more on a high-definition TV set. But then, you
> probably own one already.
>
> It's called a computer monitor. The typical monitor can display HD
> video of respectable quality - not up there with a true HDTV set, but
> not bad. All you need now is a fairly robust personal computer, and a
> digital TV tuner that plugs into a USB port and captures the video
> signals.
>
> We've been trying out a couple of these tuners - the $99 Hauppauge
> WinTV-HVR-950Q from Hauppauge Computer Works Inc. and the $129 PCTV
> HD Ultimate Stick from Pinnacle Systems, a division of Avid
> Technology Inc. in Tewksbury. These are list prices, by the way; shop
> around and you'll likely find them for less.
>
> Each gadget comes with a simple antenna that'll capture both analog
> and digital TV signals being broadcast over the airwaves. Both
> devices are made for computers running Microsoft Corp.'s Windows
> operating system. But Hauppauge and Pinnacle offer similar tuners for
> Apple Inc.'s Macintosh machines.
>
> ...
>
>
> http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2008/05/08/who_needs_an_hdtv/
>
>
> --
> E. William Horne
> William Warren Consulting
> Computer & Network Installations and Service
> 781-784-7287
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@...
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

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[Jerry Feldman-2]

As usual, Bray has his head up and locked.
First, HDTVs are selling for under $500 retail (32in and smaller). Most
of these are 720P. Full HD is 1020P, but 720P is pretty good for
smaller systems. Many also have PC connectors. I quickly looked at Best
Buy and they have a 32in 720P for $541, and eCost has a Westinghouse
32in for $488, but I also looked around and there are HD monitors
available.

On Fri, 09 May 2008 09:45:38 -0400
Bill Horne <bill@...> wrote:

> I got this submission to the Telecom Digest, and I'd like to know who's
> used these on a Linux machine, or what other cards you've used.
>
> I'm also curious about resolution: Bray says computer monitors are "not
> up there with a true HDTV set", and I want to know why.
>
> TIA.
>
> Bill Horne
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Who needs an HDTV?
> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 01:52:08 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Monty Solomon <monty@...>
> Organization: The Telecom Digest
> Newsgroups: comp.dcom.telecom
>
>
> TECH LAB
> Who needs an HDTV?
>
> By Hiawatha Bray  |  May 8, 2008
>
> Given the feeble state of the economy, many of you are in no mood to
> blow $1,000 or more on a high-definition TV set. But then, you
> probably own one already.
>
> It's called a computer monitor. The typical monitor can display HD
> video of respectable quality - not up there with a true HDTV set, but
> not bad. All you need now is a fairly robust personal computer, and a
> digital TV tuner that plugs into a USB port and captures the video
> signals.
>
> We've been trying out a couple of these tuners - the $99 Hauppauge
> WinTV-HVR-950Q from Hauppauge Computer Works Inc. and the $129 PCTV
> HD Ultimate Stick from Pinnacle Systems, a division of Avid
> Technology Inc. in Tewksbury. These are list prices, by the way; shop
> around and you'll likely find them for less.
>
> Each gadget comes with a simple antenna that'll capture both analog
> and digital TV signals being broadcast over the airwaves. Both
> devices are made for computers running Microsoft Corp.'s Windows
> operating system. But Hauppauge and Pinnacle offer similar tuners for
> Apple Inc.'s Macintosh machines.
>
> ...
>
> http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2008/05/08/who_needs_an_hdtv/
>
>
> --
> E. William Horne
> William Warren Consulting
> Computer & Network Installations and Service
> 781-784-7287
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@...
> http://lists.blu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>

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[Jarod Wilson]

On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 09:45 -0400, Bill Horne wrote:
> I got this submission to the Telecom Digest, and I'd like to know who's
> used these on a Linux machine, or what other cards you've used.

The digital side of the HVR-950Q is supported in the dvb-v4l mercurial
tip, will be included in kernel 2.6.26. Works quite well. Don't know
anyone with the Pinnacle stick, or if it supposed to work or not. I've
also used these cards w/o a problem:

1) Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1500 (expresscard, digital and analog)
2) Technisat AirStar HD-5000 (pci, digital only)
3) pcHDTV HD-3000 (pci, digital and analog)
4) pcHDTV HD-5500 (pci, digital and analog)
5) KWorld ATSC-110 (pci, digital and analog)
6) KWorld ATSC-110 (pci, digital and analog)
7) Silicon Dust HDHomeRun (networked dual tuner, digital only)
8) Hauppauge WinTV PVR-{1,2,3}50 (pci, analog only)
9) Hauppauge WinTV PVR-500 (pci, dual tuners, analog only)

All of the above work just peachy with MythTV. For more info on
supported devices, see:

http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ATSC_Devices


> I'm also curious about resolution: Bray says computer monitors are "not
> up there with a true HDTV set", and I want to know why.

Most computer monitors smaller than 24", no. My HDTV set is 1920x1080
resolution, progressive scan. You'd typically need at least a 1920x1200
resolution computer monitor to have as much resolution as a full 1080p
HDTV. Most LCD panels 24" or above fit the bill though.

Aside from resolution though, there's also hardware deinterlacing chips,
such as the venerable Faroudja, which you won't find in a monitor, but
will usually find in a solid HDTV. A good thing to have for 1080i
programming (and can also help make analog 480i stuff look less crappy,
though there's only so much you can do to make crap look less like
crap).

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Who needs an HDTV?
> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 01:52:08 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Monty Solomon <monty@...>
> Organization: The Telecom Digest
> Newsgroups: comp.dcom.telecom
>
>
> TECH LAB
> Who needs an HDTV?
>
> By Hiawatha Bray  |  May 8, 2008
>
> Given the feeble state of the economy, many of you are in no mood to
> blow $1,000 or more on a high-definition TV set. But then, you
> probably own one already.
>
> It's called a computer monitor. The typical monitor can display HD
> video of respectable quality - not up there with a true HDTV set, but
> not bad. All you need now is a fairly robust personal computer, and a
> digital TV tuner that plugs into a USB port and captures the video
> signals.
>
> We've been trying out a couple of these tuners - the $99 Hauppauge
> WinTV-HVR-950Q from Hauppauge Computer Works Inc. and the $129 PCTV
> HD Ultimate Stick from Pinnacle Systems, a division of Avid
> Technology Inc. in Tewksbury. These are list prices, by the way; shop
> around and you'll likely find them for less.
>
> Each gadget comes with a simple antenna that'll capture both analog
> and digital TV signals being broadcast over the airwaves. Both
> devices are made for computers running Microsoft Corp.'s Windows
> operating system. But Hauppauge and Pinnacle offer similar tuners for
> Apple Inc.'s Macintosh machines.
>
> ...
>
> http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2008/05/08/who_needs_an_hdtv/
>
>
> --
> E. William Horne
> William Warren Consulting
> Computer & Network Installations and Service
> 781-784-7287
>
>

--
Jarod Wilson
jarod@...


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[Jarod Wilson]

On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 10:35 -0400, Ben Holland wrote:

> Alright, it has to do with resolution and refresh rate. A 720i/p HD set gets
> 1280x720, a 1080i/p gets 1920x1080 resolution, both of which can be attained
> by a computer monitor but honestly to get a flat planel at 1920x1080 native
> resolution is by no means cheep. Now here comes the kicker, 60fps. A 1080i/p
> gets 1920x1080 at 60fps (well drop 60 but who cares), to get that, esp while
> video gaming, requires a kick ass graphics card... like professional
> quality... the stuff we use at work because I work at a media company and
> never would afford at home, even so we can't get our output at 1080i/p res
> yet... soon but not yet. Now, a 1280x720 is doable... my monitor at home
> gets 1680x1080 and I can sorta game at native screen using a moderate
> graphics card, if I got a brand new 500$ one I prolly could... if I got an
> sli I definitely could. So thats the deal.

For gaming, sure, 60fps at 1920x1080 takes quite a bit of oomph, but for
video playback at 1920x1080, most even moderately modern cheapo cpu and
video card combinations have no problem whatsoever keeping up (such is
the case with my myth box).


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[Jarod Wilson]

On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 11:16 -0400, Jarod Wilson wrote:
> 5) KWorld ATSC-110 (pci, digital and analog)
> 6) KWorld ATSC-110 (pci, digital and analog)

The second kworld entry should have been the atsc-115, though its pretty
much hardware-identical to the 110. So far as anyone can tell, the only
thing that changed was the numerical designation and a sticker on the
card. The dvb driver changes to support the card amounted to changing
strings that announced a detected 110 to say that it had detected a 110
or 115.


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[Mark J. Dulcey]

Ben Holland wrote:
> Alright, it has to do with resolution and refresh rate. A 720i/p HD set gets
> 1280x720, a 1080i/p gets 1920x1080 resolution, both of which can be attained
> by a computer monitor but honestly to get a flat planel at 1920x1080 native
> resolution is by no means cheep.

I've seen them as low as $300 (24", 1920x1200). A better one is still
under $500. Not cheap but not hideously expensive either.

  Now here comes the kicker, 60fps. A 1080i/p
> gets 1920x1080 at 60fps (well drop 60 but who cares), to get that, esp while
> video gaming, requires a kick ass graphics card... like professional
> quality... the stuff we use at work because I work at a media company and
> never would afford at home, even so we can't get our output at 1080i/p res
> yet... soon but not yet. Now, a 1280x720 is doable... my monitor at home
> gets 1680x1080 and I can sorta game at native screen using a moderate
> graphics card, if I got a brand new 500$ one I prolly could... if I got an
> sli I definitely could. So thats the deal. ~Ben

Depends on the game. For many games a single NVidia 8800GT (under $175
currently) will do. An SLI pair would certainly be nicer ($350, plus a
more expensive motherboard), or you could go for a 9800GX2 if you can
find one. For movies, you don't even need that much video hardware,
because the new graphics chip sets have HD video decoding built in --
believe it or not, the AMD 780G integrated graphics chipset can handle
it with no problem at all (including the necessary HDMI output with HDCP
if you want to play protected movies on some Other Operating System),
and so will any current ATI or NVidia graphics card.

But a good TV will still beat your monitor on contrast and on sheer
size, as I pointed out in an earlier post. But you could also connect
that TV to your computer for gaming on a really large scale. (You'd
actually find it too big physically for most desktop use.)


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[Tom Metro-12]

Bill Horne wrote:
> I got this submission to the Telecom Digest...

Ummm...what does this have to do with Telecom, and since when did the
Telecom Digest start republishing Boston Globe articles. (I haven't
looked at the Telecom Digest since the late 80's.)


> ... I'd like to know who's used these on a Linux machine, or what
> other cards you've used.

Jarod Wilson wrote:
> For more info on supported devices, see:
> http://linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ATSC_Devices

Another good point of reference:

http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Category:HDTV_capture_cards

Even if you don't plan to use MythTV, it'll give you a good indication
of what works well in Linux.


> I've also used these cards w/o a problem:
>
> 1) Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1500 (expresscard, digital and analog)
> 2) Technisat AirStar HD-5000 (pci, digital only)
> 3) pcHDTV HD-3000 (pci, digital and analog)
> 4) pcHDTV HD-5500 (pci, digital and analog)
> 5) KWorld ATSC-110 (pci, digital and analog)
> 6) KWorld ATSC-110 (pci, digital and analog)

Am I missing something or do you have the ATSC-110 listed twice? I think
it has been discontinued. It rarely shows up on eBay.

I'm still shopping for a deal on an HDHr after the one I tried to buy on
eBay last fall never delivered.

  -Tom

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"Enterprise solutions through open source."
Professional Profile: http://tmetro.venturelogic.com/

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[Jarod Wilson]

On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 14:05 -0400, Tom Metro wrote:
> > 5) KWorld ATSC-110 (pci, digital and analog)
> > 6) KWorld ATSC-110 (pci, digital and analog)
>
> Am I missing something or do you have the ATSC-110 listed twice? I
> think
> it has been discontinued. It rarely shows up on eBay.

Yep, I sent a correction in a follow-up mail. The second entry was
supposed to be the ATSC-115, which in reality, is 99.999% the same card
as the 110 at both the driver and hardware level. I believe newegg
carries the 115 for about $60. Personally, I'm targeting the Hauppauge
HD-PVR for my next purchase:

http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html

Very cool device, integration work in mythtv already underway...


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[Tom Metro-12]

Jarod Wilson wrote:
> Personally, I'm targeting the Hauppauge HD-PVR for my next purchase:
>
> http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html
>
> Very cool device, integration work in mythtv already underway...

It sounds like it is basically a self contained PVR, with some ability
to interact with a connected PC.

Though I'm confused. Does it have an internal hard drive? The
description sounds like it can record internally, but there's no mention
of disk size or recording capacity. Maybe I'm just being thrown off by
the packaging and the marketing. Is it just an HD USB tuner?

I also find it confusing that it is presented like a set top box (with
remote), though the computer interface is apparently USB, not Ethernet.
That seems to assume that the PC and TV are quite close to each other.

The specs say it has a "H.264 AVCHD video encoder." Does that mean it is
re-encoding the already encoded HD streams, or is that just for the NTSC
recordings?

What do you see as the advantage to this device over other HD tuners for
use with MythTV?

What I'd really wish Hauppauge would work on is an upgrade to their MVP
that included hardware accelerated MPEG4 (w/AC3) playback in HD resolution.

  -Tom

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[Jarod Wilson]

On Fri, 2008-05-09 at 14:46 -0400, Tom Metro wrote:
> Jarod Wilson wrote:
> > Personally, I'm targeting the Hauppauge HD-PVR for my next purchase:
> >
> > http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html
> >
> > Very cool device, integration work in mythtv already underway...
>
> It sounds like it is basically a self contained PVR, with some ability
> to interact with a connected PC.

Nope, its designed 100% to interact with a PC.

> Though I'm confused. Does it have an internal hard drive?

No.

> The
> description sounds like it can record internally, but there's no mention
> of disk size or recording capacity. Maybe I'm just being thrown off by
> the packaging and the marketing. Is it just an HD USB tuner?

And again no. :)

> I also find it confusing that it is presented like a set top box (with
> remote), though the computer interface is apparently USB, not Ethernet.
> That seems to assume that the PC and TV are quite close to each other.

The IR functionality of the device winds up being the same as a Media
Center Edition receiver -- a usb-connected IR receiver and blaster that
your media center box talks to.

> The specs say it has a "H.264 AVCHD video encoder." Does that mean it is
> re-encoding the already encoded HD streams, or is that just for the NTSC
> recordings?

THAT is the kick-ass part. (more in a sec)

> What do you see as the advantage to this device over other HD tuners for
> use with MythTV?

Very very very different target market/use case. This is basically the
sort of thing satellite and those with premium cable but everything
scrambled w/o a cable box have been hoping and waiting for.

So what this device takes in is high definition (or whatever def)
component video (ypbpr), and in hardware, encodes that analog signal
into an h264 stream, which is fed over usb2 to your pvr machine. Where
this is *awesome* is for people with satellite, who previously had no
way to record anything better than 720x480 w/o being locked into their
sat provider's dvr, and similar for those with cable boxes. For example,
I have no way to record Universal HD at better than 720x480i with my
current setup, but I could hook this thing to my cable box and get the
analog 1080i output and have this device encode it into h264.


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[David Kramer]

Jerry Feldman wrote:
> As usual, Bray has his head up and locked.
> First, HDTVs are selling for under $500 retail (32in and smaller). Most
> of these are 720P. Full HD is 1020P, but 720P is pretty good for
> smaller systems. Many also have PC connectors.

.. And thus begins my Happy Place.  I just bought a 32" Sony Bravia for
the bedroom (720p, but pretty expensive due to its other features.  The
real 1080p 32" sets started at $1200).  The killer feature for me is now
I can hook my laptop up to it, run mythfrontend on the TV screen, and
continue to do whatever I want on my laptop screen.

I almost always multitask when watching TV.  Up to now, the only way to
do that was to lug my laptop upstairs to the office, and run
mythfrontend on my server and do whatever else I want to do on my
laptop.  Now I can watch on a much bigger screen downstairs and still
multitask.

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[Tom Metro-12]

Jarod Wilson wrote:

> Tom Metro wrote:
>> The specs say it has a "H.264 AVCHD video encoder." Does that mean it is
>> re-encoding the already encoded HD streams, or is that just for the NTSC
>> recordings?
>
> THAT is the kick-ass part. (more in a sec)
>
>> What do you see as the advantage to this device over other HD tuners for
>> use with MythTV?
>
> So what this device takes in is high definition (or whatever def)
> component video (ypbpr), and in hardware, encodes that analog signal
> into an h264 stream, which is fed over usb2 to your pvr machine. Where
> this is *awesome* is for people with satellite, who previously had no
> way to record anything better than 720x480 w/o being locked into their
> sat provider's dvr, and similar for those with cable boxes.

Ah...so it's a device to take advantage of the "analog hole" in DRMed HD
video. Now I see the appeal. I've read that you've been able to do this
for a while, just not cost effectively. What's the expected price of
this device?

Hauppauge needs to revise their marketing, if this is the main value add
of the device. Of course they probably need to walk a fine line and not
make it too obvious that it is most useful for DRM subversion, or they'd
get sued under DMCA (although that might be a stretch, seeing as they
aren't unencrypting anything).

The sad part is that this device would largely be unnecessary if it were
not for DRM.

  -Tom

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Tom Metro
Venture Logic, Newton, MA, USA
"Enterprise solutions through open source."
Professional Profile: http://tmetro.venturelogic.com/

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[Jarod Wilson]

On Sat, 2008-05-10 at 13:53 -0400, Tom Metro wrote:

> Jarod Wilson wrote:
> > So what this device takes in is high definition (or whatever def)
> > component video (ypbpr), and in hardware, encodes that analog signal
> > into an h264 stream, which is fed over usb2 to your pvr machine. Where
> > this is *awesome* is for people with satellite, who previously had no
> > way to record anything better than 720x480 w/o being locked into their
> > sat provider's dvr, and similar for those with cable boxes.
>
> Ah...so it's a device to take advantage of the "analog hole" in DRMed HD
> video. Now I see the appeal. I've read that you've been able to do this
> for a while, just not cost effectively.

Yep, could only be done with pro-grade a/v studio gear, with a rather
high price tag.

> What's the expected price of this device?

List price ordering direct from Hauppauge is $250, haven't looked around
yet to see if it can be found for even cheaper...

> Hauppauge needs to revise their marketing, if this is the main value add
> of the device. Of course they probably need to walk a fine line and not
> make it too obvious that it is most useful for DRM subversion, or they'd
> get sued under DMCA (although that might be a stretch, seeing as they
> aren't unencrypting anything).

Yeah, I think they definitely need to tread lightly to avoid unwanted
attention... I'm sure there are some folks already furious about the
existence of this device, but as you said...

> The sad part is that this device would largely be unnecessary if it were
> not for DRM.

...yeah, this device wouldn't even be necessary if not for the stupidity
that is DRM. :\


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Jarod Wilson
jarod@...


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