"non-conscious inputs directly from your mind."

[Jonathan Chetwynd]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

"non-conscious inputs directly from your mind."

http://emotiv.com/INDS_3/inds_3.html

article in today's NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/technology/08novel.html

cheers

~:"

http://www.openicon.org beta in preparation....

Jonathan Chetwynd

j.chetwynd@...
http://www.openicon.org/

[phone]

[Steve Lee-3]

So it has at arrived at last ;-)

I don't know how easy it will be to control a pointer , but a virtual
switch-style joystick might work well.
It should work well with Jambu as only simple gestures are needed for
'next' and 'activate'.

--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

2008/6/22 Jonathan Chetwynd <j.chetwynd@...>:

> "non-conscious inputs directly from your mind."
> http://emotiv.com/INDS_3/inds_3.html
> article in today's NYT:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/technology/08novel.html
> cheers
> ~:"
> http://www.openicon.org beta in preparation....
>
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
> j.chetwynd@...
> http://www.openicon.org/
>
> [phone]
>

[Stephen Emslie]

At $299 it seems a lot more attractive than an eye tracker! I wonder if that price is for real.

Stephen

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Steve Lee <steve@...> wrote:

So it has at arrived at last ;-)

I don't know how easy it will be to control a pointer , but a virtual
switch-style joystick might work well.
It should work well with Jambu as only simple gestures are needed for
'next' and 'activate'.

--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

2008/6/22 Jonathan Chetwynd <j.chetwynd@...>:

> "non-conscious inputs directly from your mind."
> http://emotiv.com/INDS_3/inds_3.html
> article in today's NYT:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/technology/08novel.html
> cheers
> ~:"
> http://www.openicon.org beta in preparation....
>
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
> j.chetwynd@...
> http://www.openicon.org/
>
> [phone]
>

[mats.lundalv]

Hi Stephen, Steeve, Jonathan and all,

While the price looks good - if it's for real - my sceptical experience tells me that the claims most certainly aren't for real.

We've been through it all with CyberLink, and I suspect this will come out pretty much the same:
This is definitely not anything close to "thought control". This is a device that will produce a much more coarse registration of brain signals than an ordinary EEG registration - and who has been talking about using that for "controlling by thought"?  It is possibly something close to very gross bio-feedback effects - nothing very new in itself - setting yourself in gross states of relaxation and concentration/alertness - might work for some people, but unfortunately usually not for target users with physical disabilities. If it works, it is generally a slow and rather inefficient and difficult way to control things, compared to other options.

The things that worked better for some users were the "additional features" (apart from the hyped brain/thought control), that is the myo-electrical signals from eye and face muscles, but that's not very revolutionary, is it?

But ok, an interesting toy to play around with to find out if some of its features might be of interest for some users as an accessibility option. We should keep our expectations on a rather low level though ;-)

Cheers,
Mats mats.lundalv@...

-----<oats-sig-bounces@...> skrev: -----

At $299 it seems a lot more attractive than an eye tracker! I wonder if that price is for real.

Stephen

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Steve Lee <steve@...> wrote:

So it has at arrived at last ;-)

I don't know how easy it will be to control a pointer , but a virtual
switch-style joystick might work well.
It should work well with Jambu as only simple gestures are needed for
'next' and 'activate'.

--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

2008/6/22 Jonathan Chetwynd <j.chetwynd@...>:

> "non-conscious inputs directly from your mind."
> http://emotiv.com/INDS_3/inds_3.html
> article in today's NYT:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/technology/08novel.html
> cheers
> ~:"
> http://www.openicon.org beta in preparation....
>
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
> j.chetwynd@...
> http://www.openicon.org/
>
> [phone]
>

[Jonathan Chetwynd]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

mats,

your response is misplaced, any product that reaches a commercial market place can have a huge impact.

think of the Wii. 

raising awareness is a significant part of the battle, and it's usually an advantage not to be limited to the single front of disability.

I'm not aware of the price of medical EEG machines, but would not expect them to be economic...

having said which my expectations are not high.

cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd

j.chetwynd@...
http://www.openicon.org/

[phone]

On 25 Jun 2008, at 21:23, Mats Lundälv wrote:

Hi Stephen, Steeve, Jonathan and all,

While the price looks good - if it's for real - my sceptical experience tells me that the claims most certainly aren't for real.

We've been through it all with CyberLink, and I suspect this will come out pretty much the same:
This is definitely not anything close to "thought control". This is a device that will produce a much more coarse registration of brain signals than an ordinary EEG registration - and who has been talking about using that for "controlling by thought"?  It is possibly something close to very gross bio-feedback effects - nothing very new in itself - setting yourself in gross states of relaxation and concentration/alertness - might work for some people, but unfortunately usually not for target users with physical disabilities. If it works, it is generally a slow and rather inefficient and difficult way to control things, compared to other options.

The things that worked better for some users were the "additional features" (apart from the hyped brain/thought control), that is the myo-electrical signals from eye and face muscles, but that's not very revolutionary, is it?

But ok, an interesting toy to play around with to find out if some of its features might be of interest for some users as an accessibility option. We should keep our expectations on a rather low level though ;-)

Cheers,
Mats mats.lundalv@...

-----<oats-sig-bounces@...> skrev: -----

At $299 it seems a lot more attractive than an eye tracker! I wonder if that price is for real.

Stephen

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Steve Lee <steve@...> wrote:

So it has at arrived at last ;-)

I don't know how easy it will be to control a pointer , but a virtual
switch-style joystick might work well.
It should work well with Jambu as only simple gestures are needed for
'next' and 'activate'.

--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

2008/6/22 Jonathan Chetwynd <j.chetwynd@...>:

> "non-conscious inputs directly from your mind."
> http://emotiv.com/INDS_3/inds_3.html
> article in today's NYT:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/technology/08novel.html
> cheers
> ~:"
> http://www.openicon.org beta in preparation....
>
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
> j.chetwynd@...
> http://www.openicon.org/
>
> [phone]
>

[Steve Lee-3]

2008/6/25 Mats Lundälv <mats.lundalv@...>:
> But ok, an interesting toy to play around with to find out if some of its
> features might be of interest for some users as an accessibility option. We
> should keep our expectations on a rather low level though ;-)
>

Yes Mats, personally I'm sceptical too. On the odd occasions that I've
tried bio feedback since being fascinated by a home electronics
project in the late 70's I have never managed very good results. As
this looks very similar it will be good to try it out and separate the
hype from reality.

MY thoughts are that if we could get just 2 reliably reproducible
gestures It should be possible to use basic step scanning and of
course 1 relably timed gesture will work with auto scanning.

--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

[Simon Judge]

Indeed, it would be good if someone independent got hold of one and did an
unbiased comparison of it and the Cyberlink. Maybe we will if no one else
does...

S

-----Original Message-----
From: oats-sig-bounces@...
[mailto:oats-sig-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Mats Lundälv
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 9:23 PM
To: OATs Project Special Interest Group
Subject: Re: [oats-sig] "non-conscious inputs directly from your mind."

Hi Stephen, Steeve, Jonathan and all,

While the price looks good - if it's for real - my sceptical experience
tells me that the claims most certainly aren't for real.

We've been through it all with CyberLink, and I suspect this will come out
pretty much the same:
This is definitely not anything close to "thought control". This is a device
that will produce a much more coarse registration of brain signals than an
ordinary EEG registration - and who has been talking about using that for
"controlling by thought"?  It is possibly something close to very gross
bio-feedback effects - nothing very new in itself - setting yourself in
gross states of relaxation and concentration/alertness - might work for some
people, but unfortunately usually not for target users with physical
disabilities. If it works, it is generally a slow and rather inefficient and
difficult way to control things, compared to other options.

The things that worked better for some users were the "additional features"
(apart from the hyped brain/thought control), that is the myo-electrical
signals from eye and face muscles, but that's not very revolutionary, is it?


But ok, an interesting toy to play around with to find out if some of its
features might be of interest for some users as an accessibility option. We
should keep our expectations on a rather low level though ;-)


Cheers,
Mats <mailto:mats.lundalv@...>


-----<oats-sig-bounces@...> skrev: -----



        At $299 it seems a lot more attractive than an eye tracker! I wonder
if that price is for real.
       
        Stephen
       
       
        On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Steve Lee <steve@...>
wrote:
       

                So it has at arrived at last ;-)
               
                I don't know how easy it will be to control a pointer , but
a virtual
                switch-style joystick might work well.
                It should work well with Jambu as only simple gestures are
needed for
                'next' and 'activate'.
               
                --
                Steve Lee
                --
                Open Source Assistive Technology Software
                web: fullmeasure.co.uk
                blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog
               
                2008/6/22 Jonathan Chetwynd <j.chetwynd@...>:
               
                > "non-conscious inputs directly from your mind."
                > http://emotiv.com/INDS_3/inds_3.html
                > article in today's NYT:
                > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/technology/08novel.html
                > cheers
                > ~:"
                > http://www.openicon.org beta in preparation....
                >
                >
                > Jonathan Chetwynd
                >
                > j.chetwynd@...
                > http://www.openicon.org/
                >
                > [phone]
                >
               
               
               
               



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Checked by AVG.
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4:13 PM




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[mats.lundalv]

Hi Jonathan and all,

I don't think my response is misplaced. Read me right: I'm not saying this device is rubbish and good for nothing. I agree that it's very interesting with these new alternative input devices for the mass market. This one may prove useful for some AT purposes like some others.

What I'm expressing is a very sceptical reaction against the marketing claims about "controlling the computer by thought" , "... directly from the brain/mind" etc., which is uncritically propelled in the subject line of this thread. My experience and para-medical knowledge motivates that scepticism, and is confirmed by Andrew and others.

So fine if some of us go ahead and try to find out what this outfit could realistically be used for.
But let's not uncritically spread hyped and unrealistic marketing mumbo-jumbo.

Cheers,

Mats mats.lundalv@...

-----<oats-sig-bounces@...> skrev: -----

mats,

your response is misplaced, any product that reaches a commercial market place can have a huge impact.

think of the Wii. 

raising awareness is a significant part of the battle, and it's usually an advantage not to be limited to the single front of disability.

I'm not aware of the price of medical EEG machines, but would not expect them to be economic...

having said which my expectations are not high.

cheers

    

    

Jonathan Chetwynd

    

j.chetwynd@...
http://www.openicon.org/

    

[phone]

    

On 25 Jun 2008, at 21:23, Mats Lundälv wrote:

Hi Stephen, Steeve, Jonathan and all,

While the price looks good - if it's for real - my sceptical experience tells me that the claims most certainly aren't for real.

We've been through it all with CyberLink, and I suspect this will come out pretty much the same:
This is definitely not anything close to "thought control". This is a device that will produce a much more coarse registration of brain signals than an ordinary EEG registration - and who has been talking about using that for "controlling by thought"?  It is possibly something close to very gross bio-feedback effects - nothing very new in itself - setting yourself in gross states of relaxation and concentration/alertness - might work for some people, but unfortunately usually not for target users with physical disabilities. If it works, it is generally a slow and rather inefficient and difficult way to control things, compared to other options.

The things that worked better for some users were the "additional features" (apart from the hyped brain/thought control), that is the myo-electrical signals from eye and face muscles, but that's not very revolutionary, is it?

But ok, an interesting toy to play around with to find out if some of its features might be of interest for some users as an accessibility option. We should keep our expectations on a rather low level though ;-)

Cheers,
Mats mats.lundalv@...

-----<oats-sig-bounces@...> skrev: -----

At $299 it seems a lot more attractive than an eye tracker! I wonder if that price is for real.

Stephen

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Steve Lee <steve@...> wrote:

So it has at arrived at last ;-)

I don't know how easy it will be to control a pointer , but a virtual
switch-style joystick might work well.
It should work well with Jambu as only simple gestures are needed for
'next' and 'activate'.

--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

2008/6/22 Jonathan Chetwynd <j.chetwynd@...>:

> "non-conscious inputs directly from your mind."
> http://emotiv.com/INDS_3/inds_3.html
> article in today's NYT:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/technology/08novel.html
> cheers
> ~:"
> http://www.openicon.org beta in preparation....
>
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd
>
> j.chetwynd@...
> http://www.openicon.org/
>
> [phone]
>

[mats.lundalv]

Hi all, and Jonathan in particular,

I have been looking around again for tools to convert wmf/emf graphic files to svg. I have found the batik set of java tools, but cannot find any real access to the wmftosvg conversion tool that is said to be included there.
I found a question from you Jonathan about batch conversion of wmf to svg in their discussion forum, but couldn't find any clear reply to your question. Did you find out how to access that functionality?
Anybody else who knows a way to do this - with batik or in some other free way?

(I have found another tool called SvgFactory, but haven't had time to test that yet...)

Cheers,

Matsmats.lundalv@...

[Steve Lee-3]

> I have been looking around again for tools to convert wmf/emf graphic files
> to svg.

Well the PHP web server tool of choice seems to be ImageMagick and
while I have not tried it yet it looks like there are command line
versions.

http://www.imagemagick.org/script/index.php

I came across SVG factory before and there's libwmf but there doesn't
seem to have been any activity since 2002

http://wvware.sourceforge.net/libwmf.html

I've not tried any of them yet as Garry exports directly to wmf or SVG
as required.

--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

[Steve Lee-3]

oh Inkscape will import WMF so that's a good non-batch alternative and
I think OO0 will if you 'break' the image after import.

Steve

2008/6/30 Steve Lee <steve@...>:

>> I have been looking around again for tools to convert wmf/emf graphic files
>> to svg.
>
> Well the PHP web server tool of choice seems to be ImageMagick and
> while I have not tried it yet it looks like there are command line
> versions.
>
> http://www.imagemagick.org/script/index.php
>
> I came across SVG factory before and there's libwmf but there doesn't
> seem to have been any activity since 2002
>
> http://wvware.sourceforge.net/libwmf.html
>
> I've not tried any of them yet as Garry exports directly to wmf or SVG
> as required.
>
> --
> Steve Lee
> --
> Open Source Assistive Technology Software
> web: fullmeasure.co.uk
> blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog
>

--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

[Andy Judson]

I wrote a .net app to do this from png to svg for the bliss symbols using the imagemagick library... but the code is at home and i can't remember much about it... i can have a look if i can tweak it for you.

other libraries to look at

[1] http://delineate.sourceforge.net/
[2] http://potrace.sourceforge.net/

2008/6/30 Steve Lee <steve@...>:

oh Inkscape will import WMF so that's a good non-batch alternative and
I think OO0 will if you 'break' the image after import.

Steve

2008/6/30 Steve Lee <steve@...>:

>> I have been looking around again for tools to convert wmf/emf graphic files
>> to svg.
>
> Well the PHP web server tool of choice seems to be ImageMagick and
> while I have not tried it yet it looks like there are command line
> versions.
>
> http://www.imagemagick.org/script/index.php
>
> I came across SVG factory before and there's libwmf but there doesn't
> seem to have been any activity since 2002
>
> http://wvware.sourceforge.net/libwmf.html
>
> I've not tried any of them yet as Garry exports directly to wmf or SVG
> as required.
>
> --
> Steve Lee
> --
> Open Source Assistive Technology Software
> web: fullmeasure.co.uk
> blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog
>



--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

[Steve Lee-3]

Hey they look really interesting, I know someone who wants edge tracing.

it's worth noting that wmf/emf are vector formats so conversion should
be easier.

Steve

2008/6/30 Andy Judson <andy.judson@...>:

> I wrote a .net app to do this from png to svg for the bliss symbols using
> the imagemagick library... but the code is at home and i can't remember much
> about it... i can have a look if i can tweak it for you.
>
> other libraries to look at
>
> [1] http://delineate.sourceforge.net/
> [2] http://potrace.sourceforge.net/
>
> 2008/6/30 Steve Lee <steve@...>:
>>
>> oh Inkscape will import WMF so that's a good non-batch alternative and
>> I think OO0 will if you 'break' the image after import.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> 2008/6/30 Steve Lee <steve@...>:
>> >> I have been looking around again for tools to convert wmf/emf graphic
>> >> files
>> >> to svg.
>> >
>> > Well the PHP web server tool of choice seems to be ImageMagick and
>> > while I have not tried it yet it looks like there are command line
>> > versions.
>> >
>> > http://www.imagemagick.org/script/index.php
>> >
>> > I came across SVG factory before and there's libwmf but there doesn't
>> > seem to have been any activity since 2002
>> >
>> > http://wvware.sourceforge.net/libwmf.html
>> >
>> > I've not tried any of them yet as Garry exports directly to wmf or SVG
>> > as required.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Steve Lee
>> > --
>> > Open Source Assistive Technology Software
>> > web: fullmeasure.co.uk
>> > blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve Lee
>> --
>> Open Source Assistive Technology Software
>> web: fullmeasure.co.uk
>> blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

[Robert Rasiewicz]

this did work for me nicely for wmf (I did not test the transparency, though)
   http://code.google.com/p/wmf2svg/

on the same test file I did try ImageMagick 6.3.7 11/21/07 convert.exe and it failed horribly

which version of ImageMagick were you working against, Andy ?

r.

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Steve Lee <steve@...> wrote:

Hey they look really interesting, I know someone who wants edge tracing.

it's worth noting that wmf/emf are vector formats so conversion should
be easier.

Steve

2008/6/30 Andy Judson <andy.judson@...>:

> I wrote a .net app to do this from png to svg for the bliss symbols using
> the imagemagick library... but the code is at home and i can't remember much
> about it... i can have a look if i can tweak it for you.
>
> other libraries to look at
>
> [1] http://delineate.sourceforge.net/
> [2] http://potrace.sourceforge.net/
>
> 2008/6/30 Steve Lee <steve@...>:
>>
>> oh Inkscape will import WMF so that's a good non-batch alternative and
>> I think OO0 will if you 'break' the image after import.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> 2008/6/30 Steve Lee <steve@...>:
>> >> I have been looking around again for tools to convert wmf/emf graphic
>> >> files
>> >> to svg.
>> >
>> > Well the PHP web server tool of choice seems to be ImageMagick and
>> > while I have not tried it yet it looks like there are command line
>> > versions.
>> >
>> > http://www.imagemagick.org/script/index.php
>> >
>> > I came across SVG factory before and there's libwmf but there doesn't
>> > seem to have been any activity since 2002
>> >
>> > http://wvware.sourceforge.net/libwmf.html
>> >
>> > I've not tried any of them yet as Garry exports directly to wmf or SVG
>> > as required.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Steve Lee
>> > --
>> > Open Source Assistive Technology Software
>> > web: fullmeasure.co.uk
>> > blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Steve Lee
>> --
>> Open Source Assistive Technology Software
>> web: fullmeasure.co.uk
>> blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--

Steve Lee
--
Open Source Assistive Technology Software
web: fullmeasure.co.uk
blog: eduspaces.net/stevelee/weblog

[Andy Judson]

Hi Robert, i can't remember which version... will try to check later.

Mats / Steve (sorry can't remember who started this thread) - if you could send me a couple of the wmf files i'll see what is involved in patching my code... it should be easier than the png technique - i think when i did this i had to use the potrace as a proxy to trace the symbol the result was then made into an svg - worked quite well for bliss symbols although the were a little round at the tips.

2008/6/30 Robert Rasiewicz <robert.wk@...>:

this did work for me nicely for wmf (I did not test the transparency, though)
   http://code.google.com/p/wmf2svg/

on the same test file I did try ImageMagick 6.3.7 11/21/07 convert.exe and it failed horribly

which version of ImageMagick were you working against, Andy ?

r.

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Steve Lee <steve@...> wrot